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âDana Schneider
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Episode 155 is a conversation with Dana Schneider from Empire State Realty Trust and Etrit Demaj from KODE Labs.
Episode 155 features Dana Schneider from Empire State Realty Trust and Etrit Demaj from KODE Labs and is our 5th episode in the Case Study series looking at real-life, large-scale deployments of smart building technologies. These are not marketing fluff stories, these are lessons from leaders that others can put into use in their smart buildings programs. Dana dives into their systematic approach to building retrofits, leading with The Empire State Building, and why they publish what they do. Enjoy!
You can find Dana and Etrit on LinkedIn.
Overview (02:49)
Empire State Realty Trust Portfolio (04:16)
Who are the partners (05:41)
Vital technologies (08:38)
Introduction to Etrit Demaj (12:46)
What was missing from a software and controls standpoint (13:58)
Recognizing the value of software (19:30)
Lessons learned (25:10)
Seeing results (38:35)
Whatâs next (47:01)
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Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tigerâlicensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S490220-15083.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
[00:00:00] Dana Schneider: Empire State Realty Trust has been a leader in the field of investing in deep energy retrofits, um, and now in decarbonization, bringing a 10 million square foot portfolio to, uh, with the goal of net zero for well over 15 years. Our work is modernizing assets. We're modernizing infrastructure, we're making everything more resilient, more robust, more efficient, more reliable.
[00:00:24] And so everything that we're doing adds value. And so we've done intensive studies in every building, um, always leading with the Empire State Building and publishing everything that we do for free for the market to learn from around, um, how do we do it? What is the technical case? What is the engineering case?
[00:00:42] What is the economic case? And then what policy decisions are required to make us succeed?
[00:00:50] James Dice: Hey friends If you like the Nexus podcast, the best way to continue the learning is to join our community. There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus ProMembership. It's our global [00:01:00] community of smart building professionals. We have monthly events, paywall deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month.
[00:01:08] Second, you can upgrade from the ProMembership to our courses offering. It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses taught by world leading experts on each topic under the smart buildings umbrella. Third and finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions.
[00:01:27] The links are below in the show notes, and now let's go on to the podcast.
[00:01:35] All right, welcome to the Nexus podcast. This is the fifth episode in our series diving into case studies of real life large scale deployments of smart building technologies. And I emphasize real life because we're not here to create a marketing fluff story. We're here to share lessons from leaders that others can put to use in their buildings programs.
[00:01:54] I emphasize large scale because we're not talking about pilot projects, we're talking about big time deployments [00:02:00] across many buildings or deep into one building. And today we have a story coming out of New York City about Empire State Realty Trust's journey to use smart building technology to decarbonize the portfolio.
[00:02:11] And I have Dana Schneider here, Senior Vice President, Director of Energy and Sustainability at Empire State Realty Trust. Welcome, Dana. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[00:02:21] Dana Schneider: Uh, thanks for having me, James. Uh, as you said, I'm the Director of Energy Sustainability and ESG here at Empire State Realty Trust.
[00:02:30] Um, I have been working with Empire State Realty Trust since 2007, um, but I've been working here full time since 2019. Um, before this, I worked for 18 years as the Managing Director at JLL, um, where I led energy and sustainability projects, um, and. Uh, before that I was a mechanical engineer at Flack Kurtz, which is WSP Parsons Spring Grove.
[00:02:52] James Dice: Awesome. And can you tell us a little bit about the portfolio? I think, um, the Empire State Building is obviously like the most famous building in the entire [00:03:00] world. Um, can you tell us about the, the little bit more context on the rest of the portfolio?
[00:03:04] Dana Schneider: Sure. Well, the portfolio is obviously, uh, it's an incredible portfolio, mainly based in New York City, uh, and the surrounding metropolitan areas.
[00:03:13] Primarily large commercial office buildings mixed in with retail and 800 multifamily units. So it's a pretty diverse portfolio, but we do leverage the fact that the Empire State Building is one of the buildings in our portfolio in order to really highlight the work that we do and to use it as literal and figurative lightning rod, uh, to drive.
[00:03:33] Change and to inform policy, to run pilots, to show what technologies work, what paid backs work, uh, what does it take in order to make this kind of work successful? Um, what has worked, what hasn't worked, what could happen in the market in order for it to work better? Um, and just to never stop, you know, people are often asking when things are done and this kind of work continues, right?
[00:03:55] Um, so I think that's really important. Uh, so that's our portfolio. [00:04:00]
[00:04:00] James Dice: Absolutely. And this is a great time to do this podcast, and it's a great fit for this conversation because that's kind of how we're going to approach the rest of this podcast, which is, let's talk about this in terms of what other building owners can learn, what other buyers can learn that are coming sort of behind you when they go to use technology in their decarbonization roadmap.
[00:04:21] Um, so just so we sort of set the context real quick, I'm going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions around this case study itself. Um, so first of all, and these can be like really quick back and forth. So who's on your vendor team? Who are you looking for, um, to sort of round out the, the technology team, but also service providers that are helping you with this.
[00:04:41] Dana Schneider: So one of our most important, my most important partner in the work is my engineering partner. Um, right. This is, it's core engineering work. Um, and so Buro Happold, uh, is. The engineer who I partner with on the net zero work, uh, in the Empire State Building and across the portfolio, all of the properties, including the [00:05:00] multifamily, uh, the commercial, the retail, we look at everything.
[00:05:03] And, uh, so the Buro Happold team has been incredible, you know, and from the outset, you know, they bought into it. We, uh, Empire State Realty Trust, and I was trying to achieve here, right, which is this requirement to really think outside the box, to not think about what people in New York City were used to doing, right?
[00:05:19] Going from the, even the best run building here, the best design building here, is still as often rooted in what people have often done for years here. Um, and I really, New that in order to, you know, target net zero, which we define as an 80 percent reduction, uh, in emissions was going to take a different kind of a perspective.
[00:05:40] Right? Um, so they bring a global perspective, which I think is really important. In fact, my partner, um, there is not from. The U. S. He's not from New York and the bulk of his projects until coming here are based all over Europe, which gives us a great perspective on different typologies of technologies that are certainly well [00:06:00] proven, just not often used here.
[00:06:02] Um, and I needed that perspective, right, to step outside of the comfort zone, but still know that the technologies would work. Right. And it's very interesting how people get. Stuck in, you know, what has always what we've always done. Um, now we need to do something different, right? Um, and I think that that's been an amazing part of working here and working with Tony, um, and our board understanding that that if you can make your business case, um, and show that it all comes back to, uh, Objective modeling, which it does, um, that these are actually better investments than not doing them.
[00:06:38] And I think it's a critical time for the world to see that, um, but certainly to show here, um, by being an early adopter, we, we deliver those returns because of the work itself. Um, but we... Deliver on, on other returns in the modernization of these assets ahead of the game. Um, and in reducing risk of, you know, [00:07:00] compliance or disclosure or what investors may be looking for, whether they're America based or other.
[00:07:05] James Dice: Yeah. So can you talk about the technology stack itself, like what types of technologies are vital in what you're, what you're doing?
[00:07:14] Dana Schneider: So people are always asking for what's the one thing that made the biggest difference? What is one thing we can do to get our building a zero? Or even when we were talking about the net, the deep energy retrofit, you know, what's the one most important thing you did?
[00:07:27] Um, and we've always used the phrase that it's silver buckshot, not. A silver bullet, um, when you're going for even where we started, which was like a 40 percent energy reduction, which is massive, right? Um, and certainly now with the target of net zero emissions reduction, there's not one thing, right? We actually have lists of of over 100 interventions that will take in each.
[00:07:50] Building, um, some of them overlap and some of them don't, but really it's more the category than the vendor themselves. Right? And you really have to look at the entire building as a whole. [00:08:00] Um, we generally will work from the outside in as we develop all of our ideas for the measures. So we start with the envelope.
[00:08:08] You know, and we've already done projects, uh, just to use the Empire State Building example of retrofitting all of the windows, um, reusing over 96 percent of the window materials, doing all the work on site, and quadrupling their performance. Um, we added insulation, um, behind every radiator, under every window, um, which is huge, and the, uh, we've done weatherization, um, as well, and we do projects like that in every building.
[00:08:32] Right. We start it there. We test it there. We pilot things there, and then we roll them out and scale them. Um, so the envelope work is really step one, uh, because that has a tremendous impact on what you do with your heating and your cooling. Um, as we move, you know, to the heating and the cooling, um, we also look at right sizing, um, which is critical.
[00:08:53] And that's why your envelope work really should be done first, um, because otherwise you lose a pretty big opportunity for right sizing your equipment. [00:09:00] Um, and so we look. At the tenant usage and what our ultimate goals are for having more efficient tenants, we have high performance design and construction guidelines that we began in 2009, which are very specific and help all of our tenants.
[00:09:15] We've proven the business case and the return on investment on the tenant side as well. But those reductions in tenant energy usage. Super efficient HVAC distribution, um, efficient appliances, using plug load controls, using advanced lighting controls. You know, in the beginning, I had to prove a business case for daylight dimming.
[00:09:33] Now let's code. But those are things that we have really led on, um, as well as the indoor environmental quality measures, right? We never compromise on that. Um, so things like CO2 sensors and, um, Active air purification and MERV 13 filters in 100 percent of our units. That's always been our standard, um, for well over a decade.
[00:09:53] So these are things that we've always focused on. Once you have those loads over time, right? Because we [00:10:00] renovate tenant spaces as they renew or as they roll, right? You're not going to really try to not intervene, um, then we can go to the central plants, um, and the HVAC system typology itself. Um, and optimize those systems, either replacement or the replacement of a central plan or boilers is something that happens on a 20 or 25 year scale.
[00:10:20] Um, we do a tremendous amount of reuse and retrofitting as well. It's kind of amazing with well maintained equipment what you could do without replacement. Um, and for other things when we're replacing, um. You know, we have a vision, and that's why our goal is 2030 net zero for the Empire State Building, 2035 for the portfolio as a target.
[00:10:39] That happens over a 10 or 15 year period with the tenants and with the equipment when it, as they roll. Uh, and so those, um, revisions to things like lighting and lighting controls, we're doing whole, um, upgrades of the building management systems and the overlay of the MSI KODE Labs. Now, it's 1 of our most [00:11:00] important projects, but by itself, that wouldn't.
[00:11:03] Be the 80 percent reduction we're looking for.
[00:11:05] James Dice: Totally, totally. And, and that's a great segue to bring in Etrit, uh, Demaj here. Hey Etrit, you haven't been on the show before, but your brother has, uh, welcome. Welcome again to you guys at KODE Labs to come on the show. Uh, can you introduce yourself?
[00:11:20] Etrit Demaj: Yeah. Hey guys.
[00:11:21] Uh, thanks for having me, James. And again, thanks for having us, uh, another episode too. Um, just real quick, Etrit Demaj. One of the co founders of KODE Labs. KODE Labs has been around since October of 2017. We are a smart building cloud with the right applications for different use cases within, you know, different buildings.
[00:11:43] I think we've, we've, you know, just to, you know, add, we've, we've had some really great Success and growth throughout these years. But really our biggest success has been, you know, working really closely with clients like Dana and others. Help us continue to [00:12:00] keep driving forward and then really learn other parts of real estate too and other parts of how buildings should be working.
[00:12:06] So we can continue to keep evolving our platform too. driving that bright customer success, um, regardless of what the outcome is.
[00:12:16] James Dice: So you've talked about all the different energy conservation measures, all the different, um, sort of, um, retrofit, uh, measures to decarbonize the portfolio, but from a software and control standpoint, can you talk about what was missing specifically that led you to sort of say, well, we need to rethink about this technology stack.
[00:12:36] Dana Schneider: So. As part of our roadmap development to our net zero targets, um, and whether your target is net zero, or if you just want to do as much as you can, an essential part of that must be the building management system, um, and the control sequence, the sequence of operations. So this is literally the language.
[00:12:56] That communicates with all of your equipment in the building, all of it, [00:13:00] um, to automate as much as possible, but also just basic optimization. Um, as we developed our plans for what is, we call ESRT 2. 0. It's our net zero targets. Um, what we're doing there is constantly balancing costs and savings for payback, right?
[00:13:18] We have to report to our stakeholders and we have to make sure we always deliver for them. Um, And one of the most important things we're doing on that is the controls themselves, making sure these systems are automated, intelligent, that we take advantage of new technologies, but also make sure that they're reliable.
[00:13:35] And so the upgrades we'll be doing across the entire portfolio, which is largely underway in our building management systems, align with and then exceed. ASHRAE guideline 36, which is the high performance controls guidelines from ASHRAE. Our goal is to be 1 of the 1st to take existing systems and upgrade them to that level.
[00:13:56] Um, I think it's an extremely important. lesson [00:14:00] for everyone because a new building becomes an existing building the second people move into it. Um, and so if we're going to make a difference here, the most important thing is to focus on the buildings which are occupied, whether they're 1931 like the Empire State Building or a brand new building from the ground up, this is an essential piece of the work.
[00:14:20] Um, and so as part of that update, um, we also want to make sure that our new systems integrate beyond what a building management system is able to do. Right. A building management system is, there are many ways to market a building management system when you're selling one, but if you're the one using a building management system, um, they're still pretty, uh, they're not always user friendly, um, in the way they interface with the engineers.
[00:14:43] Um, and they don't always integrate different technologies into them. In fact, they generally do not. Right? Uh, many of them are sold by big global companies that make them proprietary, even if the underlying hardware or software is not meant to be prior. Uh, proprietary, and you know that I understand why people do that, but [00:15:00] it doesn't help the industry progress.
[00:15:01] Um, so what we're going for is an open protocol, um, systems that are based on the best available technologies where they'll be completely transparent to us and the people who run our systems and that we'll be able to continue to upgrade them over time to be the most efficient programming possible. And as equipment gets.
[00:15:23] Replaced and restored and excuse me, not restored, but replaced and, um, retrofit. Um, there are, there is always a programming set that goes with that as best practice. Um, and on top of that, we want to be able to tie into the latest, greatest other optimization technologies that may not be a BMS, right? So if we want to partner with Lutron on advanced lighting controls and tie it into our BMS, that's a whole rigmarole of licensing and all this.
[00:15:48] Crap, we don't need to do that, right? We've been looking for an, well, we would need to do that. We don't want to need to do that. Um, we have an optimization software company that we work with for [00:16:00] demand management and demand response events. We have a company that we work with on real time water usage. We have tenant energy, you know, billing and all those are different companies, which is typical.
[00:16:11] We wanted to integrate them into one place. Um, but we just. Don't just want to see them. We want to use them for integrated optimization. Um, and so I'd been looking for years, well over 10 years, um, for a technology that would enable us to do that, a master systems integrator that also is technology agnostic that will take the best of the best of what we have and tie it all in together for us to be able to optimize our buildings in real time, um, and over time.
[00:16:36] Uh, and so Etrit and I have been partnering, um, working together since last year, 2022. Um, To, uh, leverage the platform of KODE Labs as a master systems integrator, um, which will tie in and integrate all of the different, um, pretty advanced and great technologies that we have used over the years, um, to take them and magnify their [00:17:00] power by having them work together, um, and then also overlay on the BMS, which is the most important piece of it, uh, for us, where we'll be able to transparently see our control sequences.
[00:17:10] We'll be able to do continuous commissioning on that and we'll have real fault diagnostics detection and other ways, um, to, to double check, make sure things are installed and programmed and working in real time the way that we intend, um, and be able to make those updates as a team as we go. Um, so we were really looking for that transparency and that partnership towards optimization.
[00:17:32] James Dice: Absolutely. The other piece that I love about this is there aren't a lot of people that are sitting in your position that recognize. It's the importance of controls and digitization and a
[00:17:42] data layer to
[00:17:43] bring all of these things together. No, but can you talk about that when you talk to your peers is why don't they get this or do they?
[00:17:51] Maybe there's an insider group that when I talk to sustainability folks, it's only the folks that came from controls or came from smart buildings to get into the [00:18:00] sustainability role that get this. If you came from the other way. It seems like there's a lot of education that we still need to do around the role of software and decarbonization.
[00:18:11] Yeah. Do you have any insight into why that is? Why, um, you know, the sustainability folks don't necessarily recognize the value of software in the decarbonization process?
[00:18:22] Dana Schneider: So I think there's a lot of differences in the way rules are structured. Um, my role is unique in the fact that it's, you know, energy and sustainability from an engineering perspective, um, and the performance of the assets and the, um, Infrastructure of the buildings.
[00:18:38] Um, so, you know, um, ESG is focused on, uh, the reporting and the disclosure, which is extremely important part of the work, of course. Um, and it's pretty common. I think that that role is separate from the engineering group, um, or, um, You know, or that they just, uh, [00:19:00] communicate back and forth to get the information they need from the engineering group.
[00:19:03] I think, in my opinion, um, for these programs to work in a way where the performance is optimized, the engineering, um, piece is critical part of it. So, the, uh, integration of the, um, Net zero goals, the sustainability goals, the performance goals, um, because all of the metrics that we're seeing, whether it's legislation or investor disclosures or, uh, just annual reporting or the SEC is going with their ruling, all depends on showing progress against goals, which means that disclosure alone is not enough, you know, disclosure and showing progress and what your plans are is where we need to be.
[00:19:40] So the integration of the engineering itself into the sustainability work to me is, Um, the right way to do this. And it's really important that we, you know, work together as a team on, um, engineering sustainability, uh, which also brings you the new infrastructure, the modernization, the resiliency, it's, it's, they're inextricable, [00:20:00] um, I think.
[00:20:01] James Dice: Etrit, can you talk about what Dana was just talking about in terms of. You know, digging into the control stack and realizing that, you know, I want to implement these new control sequences, these state of the art control sequences from ASHRAE, and I don't have a supervisory control layer that's capable of doing that.
[00:20:18] So you probably hear that a lot with a lot of your customers. Can you talk about sort of how you're sort of trying to fill that gap?
[00:20:25] Etrit Demaj: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Um, so there, there's a lot of ways to, to, to talk about that. I think the first thing that we're, that I will say is. Um, ESRT is one of the first that's really going deep on Astra G36 and making it a standard across the portfolio, right?
[00:20:43] So from our perspective, what we've been able to do there and what we're continuing to do as the, you know, as a retrofit is going on, um, is that, um, from a technology stack, the goal is to make it, to figure out scalability, but [00:21:00] also to figure out transparency and then in a lot of ways, To see the same thing.
[00:21:04] So like from like whether whoever the vendor is. That is programming G36 or turning on G36 in different, let's say, floors or buildings to be able to bring it back, digitally commission that and make sure that it is working per standard, but then turning on the right, um, uh, rules. Tools and then visualization that is as standard as can be and then tying that to the rest of the systems and also working with the different operators, uh, within the buildings to add some level of customizations based on, you know, what they want to also see on top of just what, uh, you know, what the standards are, because every building does have different ways of working and operating.
[00:21:51] So this gets you, from our perspective, it gets you to that 60, 70, 80%. And then that 20%, you know, is part of the [00:22:00] change management side where, hey, how, you know, how are the operators working, what do they want to be able to see, and then keeping that, you know, structure in place to continue to keep evolving and growing within, um, within the, the stack of, you know, the control stack, right?
[00:22:16] And then I think another part is really the, the fact that most systems out there, when, when you're trying to kind of visualize things. Um, and what differentiates, like, KODE is that we're, you know, we're, we're, we're bi directional. We're able to quickly enable, you know, users quickly enable new, um, you know, new data points.
[00:22:41] And then, regardless of what the underlying system is, um, see what, you know, what type of data could also be missing. So that way, when that, you know, retrofit is happening, um, have a good, uh, method for success and a path to, um, a process that actually, you know, [00:23:00] comes out to the right outcome.
[00:23:02] James Dice: Great. Great. Um, so can you guys talk about, okay, the This project that you've done, I think we're, we at Nexus are trying to get super focused in on, okay, this is a very innovative project.
[00:23:13] There aren't a lot of these out there. How do we tell, you know, the people that are following along what the lessons learned were? Um, so Dan, can you talk about when you're implementing this? It's really a newer software layer in the stack for a lot of people. You know, a lot of times you just install.
[00:23:30] Building, building management system with like huge air quotes to manage your control sequences. Um, some people bring in a separate fault detection diagnostics application. Um, what you guys are doing is bringing everything together into one platform, all of your systems, but then also going deep on the HVAC control layer, um, portion.
[00:23:52] Can you talk about some of the lessons learned with that, um, that other people could learn from when they try to copy this, this approach?
[00:23:58] Dana Schneider: So I think [00:24:00] that, um, a lot of times, uh, A building team, um, will have a building management system and, and the assumption, especially like at an executive level, it's like, oh, well, we have a BMS, so obviously it's optimized.
[00:24:14] Um, and I can't tell you how many times in my career that has been the assumption of other people, never me. Um, and it's so funny to be like the, from the engineering perspective of it, to try to explain. And it's a hard pill to swallow, right? Because you're saying, well, you've spent all this money on your building management system, which has likely been pitched to you by the building management system seller.
[00:24:36] Um, like it's the panacea and everything is optimized. The building management system on its own isn't optimized at all. And frankly, if your control sequence isn't advanced, or isn't complete, or isn't good, or isn't transparent, you might not even have great controls going on in a building, even a brand new one.
[00:24:52] Um, I think that the industry doesn't have enough experts in control sequences. Um, I think [00:25:00] that the globalization, you know, these giant global companies, the building management systems, um, have a ton of potential, um, but the service side in the markets for all of them is challenged. Um. You know, and at JLL, I worked in all kinds of different markets and all kinds of different buildings.
[00:25:16] And it was so dependent on your individual person who serviced your building, what you would get. Um, and I think it's still like that, right? It becomes, um, highly localized and very hit or miss if you have the right person. Um, I don't think that a lot of engineering firms specialize in writing good control sequences.
[00:25:35] Um. So for anyone out there who's in school or looking for a job, um, you, this is an amazing opportunity. Um, these are fantastic jobs. You know, it's basically coding for buildings. Um, and we could do way better than we're doing now. So the idea is acknowledging, you know, there's like no ego here and acknowledging that you might have done something yourself.
[00:25:55] But that doesn't mean you're done. Um, and you might have specified something and agree to it yourself, but that [00:26:00] doesn't mean it's as good as it's going to be because tomorrow something better will come out. Um, and so what we embarked on and, and in trying to get to net zero is the idea of, um, knowing exactly what our control sequence is.
[00:26:14] are. Um, so that was step one, right? Um, and you might be surprised how difficult it was. Well, some of our partners have been amazing. Um, most of our partners actually have been amazing and fully disclosed what they programmed and let us see our own control sequence that we Rote, right? But you would be surprised, um, you know, the lack of transparency in a lot of systems, which are meant to be open protocol, but are run as proprietary because it benefits the industry to have a monopoly on everything that happens in that building.
[00:26:46] And that's really what has happened. Um, I think it wasn't intended. I'd like to think the best of people and that they didn't intend for it to be that way. Um, but if you want the best products, you know, you can't be beholden to the same one [00:27:00] Um, and so the idea of being able to see, uh, transparently what was actually installed and to overlay optimization on top of that, um, is a critical part of getting to where we need to be.
[00:27:12] So the acknowledgement that a BMS alone is not optimization, um, the acknowledgement that a BMS, if I can't see the control sequence, um, doesn't work, right? How do I even know that, um, the way that I think the system is running is really how it's running if I can't see that programming. Totally. Um, and so the, the exposure of, of our own control sequence, which we have written, um, to us is, is a critical part of the work.
[00:27:41] Um, and the partnership with, uh, uh, KODE Labs, um, to be agnostics and objective around how it's, Running is, is critical, right? Because nobody wants to go in and criticize their own system. Um, and that's been really interesting, you know, from the early days of writing like commissioning specs. [00:28:00] Um, you know, generally that third party commissioning agent is really important.
[00:28:04] Um, and even if it's the same company, you want an independent team from the same company to do it. You know, this kind of gives you that. Right, because JCI is not in JCI's best interest to tell you JCI's system is not doing what JCI's system is supposed to do. And I'm only using it as an example because we have Metasys in the Empire State Building, which is an amazing BMS.
[00:28:22] Um, but the interesting piece of it is, you know, JCI isn't writing the control sequence, it's given to them. And that's where, you know, that, that whole, um, Not being egotistical and instead of, you know, saying, what can we do better all the time comes in, right? Because there's no finger pointing. And again, we'll use Johnson as the example because our Empire Stapling partner, um.
[00:28:46] JCI didn't write the control sequence that was programmed, right? Our engineers did at our direction. And so that, that, um, lack of finger pointing becomes important, right? We just want to see how it got programmed. If it's [00:29:00] something that we designed five years ago, there might be something way better we could do now.
[00:29:04] Um, and as we implement our 2. 0 program, which You know, for the Empire State Building is something we developed in 2020 and 2021, you know, now we're rolling out guideline 36 in the Empire State Building. We're retrofitting existing equipment to be the equipment of 2030 and 2035, you know, not the equipment of 2010 or 2020 anymore.
[00:29:23] That kind of partnership and willingness to add advances. Really important and transparency as we do that is key to making sure it gets done right. And then it continues to be upgraded. Um, so the exposure of the sequences is critical to optimization of a building management system. And I would say there's no one tool, but the most critical tool is being able to see what you've programmed in your automation and the controls of all the energy using systems in that building.
[00:29:50] Etrit Demaj: Just to add to what Dana was saying earlier. Thank you. About, like, BMSs and, you know, going deeper from, you know, having the right, um, uh, [00:30:00] the definition of how control sequences should be working and working on that. I think some of the lessons learned, too, are really, um, there's, the reality is there's a real shortage in the industry for people that actually know how to do these things really, really well, right?
[00:30:16] Even from a programming perspective, regardless of what type of vendor it is, um, so that I think the technologies part. Can, you know, building around that can continue to help, you know, um, make that part a little bit smoother and that experience more 2023 and not 1993. So like, that's a really big part of all buildings.
[00:30:40] And I think like from that perspective, we, we, we, we need to be conscious of that. Right. So like lessons learned are if the hardware providers. Are going to continue to keep evolving and building, they should build to understand to make sure that there's a better way to program which is more of like [00:31:00] buttons.
[00:31:00] Hey, turn G36 on a little bit faster, then don't charge me 200, 000 to turn G36 on. Like, are you crazy? Like, there's like, it is 2023. I think we're going to get there. More and more.
[00:31:14] James Dice: Okay, so transparency around, uh, control sequences, that's lesson learned number one. What's, uh, number two? What's, what's a big lesson learned from this project?
[00:31:22] Dana Schneider: Um, I think that understanding that there will always be changed in order for there to be progress is, is a really important lesson and to not be afraid of that, um, you know, it's work. Um, but we all have jobs, right? So I think it's really important, um, to acknowledge that, you know, this type of work, and frankly, keeping any building up and running, including your own home or your own apartment, right?
[00:31:45] Um, it's continuous work. So making sure that that work is informed, um, I think is the most important. Lesson, frankly, right? Investing in the right analysis up front to develop what your plan long term will be, [00:32:00] and then not being afraid to update that plan as new technologies become available and as you learn more.
[00:32:05] Um, that, that's really at the core of this, right? Um, understanding that integration of the performance of the asset, that sustainability performance or the modernization performance, whatever you want to call it, that optimization has to be part of the work from inception all the time. When you plan it that way, That's where your amazing payback comes in because you have to replace x y date anyway.
[00:32:29] When you do that, know what your plan is to update it at the right, in the right way, um, to to deliver maximum performance, the maximum returns.
[00:32:38] James Dice: And I think that, that, that's sort of hits at the value of having a data layer installed that you can then, Install applications on top of I say on top of that's not exactly how they're sitting in the cloud.
[00:32:51] There's no,
[00:32:51] Dana Schneider: there's no like top cloud, but it is on the data, right? The data layer is the base. It's literally the basis of everything we do. So, um, [00:33:00] making sure that's correct and accurate, um, and not 3 months delayed, right? It doesn't help me very much to know that there was a problem three months ago in the building.
[00:33:09] Um, so being able to, like, rely on, you know, real time data optimization is really important. Um, and although we do a ton of work like that, having it in a more usable form is... Will be transformative.
[00:33:22] James Dice: Absolutely.
[00:33:22] Etrit Demaj: I think just, just to add to that, to, you know, kind of what, what you guys are saying too is, um, from, from a KODE perspective and also some lessons learned that for is, is if the building, obviously, like, if you have a thousand devices in a building.
[00:33:38] Don't get stuck on the 50 devices that you may not be able to do something with right away, right? Start to show value where you can show value and be able to give that value faster to the end user but also to the partners in these vendors because they're working really hard like they're like they're putting in a lot of You know, hours, a lot of sweat, [00:34:00] and then they're also just, everybody's trying to do the right thing.
[00:34:03] So, like, it, sometimes it takes time to get more and more aligned. But when you do get aligned, you know, like Dana, we see it. Like, you start to fly more and more, right? Like, from all the way to, from the, the, the, the, the, the vendors in the building, to the technology, to the operators, to the different users.
[00:34:20] And you start to come together more and more when they start to actually see data. And then, it's much easier to tackle. The problem childs. So like what I mean by that is the actual equipment or more proprietary things because you can start to show them and say, Hey, look, you want to keep coming on board?
[00:34:38] You want to keep coming on board? Cause everybody does. At times they just it's just a nervous thing, right? Like, oh, you're gonna take my things or you're not like no That's not the case. We're just gonna all work together to continue to drive this whole, you know Decarbonization in this project 2. 0.
[00:34:55] James Dice: Absolutely. Okay, any other any other lessons learned that are coming to mind?
[00:34:59] Dana Schneider: I think [00:35:00] the idea of making sure that you, you have to look at the holistic entity, right? It's the entire building and all of the systems in it. Um, so you can't, you know, in typical energy audits, um, the envelope is usually ignored, uh, tenant equipment is usually ignored, human behavior is usually ignored.
[00:35:18] So I think it's really important to say, um, that all of these systems interact with each other and they all have a part to play in that optimization. Um, and there's no reason to say, Stay away from it or shy away from it, right? Um, as a landlord arming our tenants with these tools, you know, that's, that's, that's tenant service, right?
[00:35:35] They're our clients. Um, so working with them to give them, uh, a net zero space, a carbon neutral space, a well health safety certified space, all those things that we're doing is for them, um, and helps us lease space, and it also helps our tenants. All of whom have sustainability performance in their top five, if not more higher up on their priority list.
[00:35:57] Um, it gives that to them, right? You [00:36:00] choose an Empire State Realty Trust building, you're automatically getting that performance. You don't have to do it. You're also automatically getting all that data you need for your own disclosures, right? We have it. We're keeping it. We'll give it to you. And I think that that kind of thing should be looked at like a service.
[00:36:13] And, and it's something that's really important, um, for us to lead on and, and deliver.
[00:36:18] James Dice: Yeah. And that's like another sort of playbook, uh, item that I would go back to, which is, um, not viewing sustainability or decarbonization as something that's off in the silo. It's actually needs to be integrated into the business, which is your business is serving your tenants and providing a space for them to be productive and have a good experience.
[00:36:38] And I see a lot of people that kind of view this as like, well, we need to optimize our HVAC system, and they don't talk to any users about it or any of the operations folks. And it's like viewed as this science project, but it's like, no, this is a business that, you know, all of this is providing a comfortable environment, a productive environment, healthy indoor air quality.
[00:36:58] It's not just there to consume [00:37:00] energy or. be reduced, right? This is a holistic system that needs to be paid attention to. I love that. Um, can we talk about kind of close this conversation off with talking about the results that you've seen. I think that's a good way to sort of conclude, um, you guys have gone down this path.
[00:37:18] It's a pretty new path. Um, there are others that might be thinking about following you. So what are the, what are the results that you could, you would speak to them about? Here.
[00:37:27] Etrit Demaj: Yeah. Um, so I think from like the results perspective, there's just what we tend to see. Um, uh, I think like. A huge one is, is like standardizing, like the approach, standardizing the reporting and then standardizing even from like a documentation.
[00:37:48] That's a first, you know, I think what I would consider a pretty big success, um, as, as a team altogether. The second part is being able to get your digital [00:38:00] commissioning, um, and then understand. Regardless of which building or which location there's work being done and regardless of what type of vendor really, at the end of the day, understanding that data and then being able to train end users on how to actually run digital commissioning or continuous commissioning the same way helps the Thank you.
[00:38:24] portfolio continue to keep getting more centralized. So from the approach of, look, regardless of how I work in my building, what definitely, you know, maybe I have less floors or more tenants and less tenants, we're still going to run the same goals in the same way. And, and then start to come up with planning and then start to use the tools in a way that that's useful.
[00:38:47] One of the. Uh, the big reasons why I think, uh, we, we really started to have a great relationship with Empire State Realty Trust, with Buro Happold as well. And obviously we've done [00:39:00] a lot of work with Buro Happold in, in other places and they've been able to see that I think with some of the tools that we have, which is one of them is called a functional testing tool and it's really a digital commissioning tool.
[00:39:12] So everything that you just talked about, what it does is. It allows you to be able to see how your equipment is working, or is something maybe like, is the heating not working, or is the cooling not working? But also, is it, is it, is it maintaining the G36 programming levels that it needs to maintain? And then, with the...
[00:39:35] Again, going back to with the, with the, uh, specifications of Buro Happold and Dana and Dana's team to be able to add that kind of logic portfolio wide, right? So, like, now you don't have to worry about how it looks, where, or what human is programming what, but as soon as somebody says it's done, you can cross reference these things.
[00:39:59] And then digit [00:40:00] commission, but then not stop there, be able to continuously commission based on whether it's some kind of a rebate or whether it's some kind of just, it's just a process or there's an issue somewhere to get to the dollars faster so you can have, you know, um, I'm not even gonna say less truck rolls, but really just get the data so that way the partners and the vendors and the service contractors Can, can, can, can do what they need to do faster, or also the engineers in the building.
[00:40:29] Um, and then the other part of the success is, like Dana was talking, tying in other, like, systems, like Portfolio Manager, and many other ones that are out there, um, to start, um, seeing how that data is coming in, how it works together. And then tracking also that the utilities reporting per sub metering too, right?
[00:40:52] So like Empire State Realty Trust, really far along. And all we're doing from a success perspective is [00:41:00] just, you know, restructuring and then having a good ontology in place for that too. To where now it's much easier to share this kind of reports. And then this is, again, this is part of the ongoing. And we feel really good about some of the outcomes and some of the things that have come in that are, that are basically coming, uh, uh, coming live here.
[00:41:21] Um, and obviously with when you, when you have a, a client like Empire State Realty Trust, who believes from, again, like Dana, you said from the board to the CEO, like seeing on LinkedIn that Tony Malkin just re shared a bunch of, you know, posts about, ESG and like what ESRT is, right? You don't see that many CEOs doing that, you know?
[00:41:44] So like that kind of gives you a pretty good idea of, you know, where they want to go and, and how serious they are. And when they are that serious, you have to show success too, right? Because nobody has time for, for, for just to... Trial and there,
[00:41:57] James Dice: Dana, how about, how about you from your perspective, [00:42:00] um, results wise?
[00:42:02] Dana Schneider: So the way that we, we have always, uh, approached these jobs, uh, from the beginning in 2007, um, is to be able to, again, you. Use that data based approach, um, and demonstrate that there's a business case to be made for these investments. Um, so that no matter who the audience is, whatever their priority is, everyone's priority is to make money.
[00:42:27] Um, and so we want to do good, um, but we also want to make money. Uh, and it's essential that we do that. We're a publicly traded company. And I think that, you know, to be a leader comes a responsibility to demonstrate both things, right? Um, Being able to say what's technically possible. And our case studies actually, I have to put in a PSA for this because we've actually published all of our case studies, um, for free, uh, in Partnership and NYSERDA.
[00:42:55] Um, and they're all posted. We can provide the link. James, I'll give it to you to [00:43:00] share with the audience because our goal is, you know, we've We don't want to only do this at the Empire State Building, um, we want to use the most exciting, most beautiful, most famous building in the world because it's exciting for people to learn from a building like her, right, but she is meant to be the example for everybody else to follow, um, and we've taken that role really seriously to demonstrate, um, what can be done, um, and so to say that Local Law 97 can be achieved or that Net Zero can be achieved, can be achieved.
[00:43:31] When these other things happen, right, it's not easy, um, but when the grid in New York does what the grid is meant to do, um, when it's meant to do it, um, and when these technologies come together and we can rely on the amazing incentives that we can partner with NYSERDA and Con Ed to help with some of the new technologies that we're going to pilot and when we can, um, integrate these designs with the rollout of, um, Upgrades to our infrastructure [00:44:00] as as it rolls over a 10 year period.
[00:44:02] And when that happens, we have proven in every single 1 of our buildings and in every single tenant space. We've done that. There's an incredible payback of doing that. The first time that we did our work in the Empire State Building, our deep energy retrofit had a 38 percent guaranteed energy reduction with a 3.
[00:44:20] 1 year payback. And we did M& V every year. We do M& V actually every other week. It's continuous commissioning. That's why we're very serious when we talk about what the KODEÂ Labs will do for us. Because every week or every other week isn't enough for us. We want it in real time now, right? We're, we're, we're speeding up and we're going to the next level.
[00:44:39] And part of making sure, um. That we don't just come up with our plan for net zero, um, that we implement our plan for net zero. And as we pursue these, um, very intensive targets, um, we measure our progress, um, and we understand, you know, what it will take to get there or, you know, are [00:45:00] we going to be a year ahead?
[00:45:01] Are we going to be a year behind? You know, we're not going to, we're going to make sure that every time we do these projects that they stack up to the economic case that we Hold ourselves to, um, and as technology advances, we'll continue to look at new technologies, um, and do better. And that's why, you know, that partnership with KODE Labs, um, and with our BMS providers has been critical, um, because that partnership and transparency, um, is critical to meeting our goals.
[00:45:28] And setting a goal is cute first step, um, but making progress against that goal is the only thing that will drive change.
[00:45:35] James Dice: I think the last question I have for you before we close off, as you talked about 2. 0, Dana, and can you just give us like kind of what's next, like, um, where are you guys headed next?
[00:45:45] Dana Schneider: Yeah. Um, so, you know, what, what is now, like we refer to as our 1. 0 work. That was the original work that we began the analysis in 2007. We did the initial implementation began in 2010, right? So it's [00:46:00] fitting that 2. 0 happens 10 years later. Um, Right? We started that work really in 2020. Uh, and I think that it's logical then that our net zero goal for the Empire State Building is, in fact, a target for 2030.
[00:46:13] Um, and I think that that's realistic, right? And that's a really important part of the story. Um, especially in large buildings, these things don't and shouldn't happen immediately, right? It's very wasteful to take a piece of equipment that has useful life, that's in good shape. Trash it. We would never do that.
[00:46:29] Um, that's not a good use of equipment and it's terrible for embodied carbon, right? Which all matters. Um, so the idea of having these, uh, you know, level setting in real time, um, evolving your plans as you go, but doing like a whole reset maybe every decade is very much appropriate, right? When I think of where we were 10 years ago and where we are today, um.
[00:46:53] The principle of our process has not changed. That still works. Um, the way to do this, the steps to [00:47:00] take, the, the rigor of that is, is right. Um, but the technologies to evaluate, um, what's available to us now, uh, is really important to not be afraid to try. Um, test, but verify, right? We didn't just give this to Etrit.
[00:47:16] We did a tremendous amount of work in the background and got a commitment, you know, that they would be nimble and work with what we wanted, right? I'm not buying what you're selling. I'm buying what I need. Um, and I think that that's really important too, to have a partner who, um, it's a, it's really a two way partnership, um, because the better we can make this tool, the better it is for everybody else down the line who hopefully benefits from the testing and work that we're doing.
[00:47:42] James Dice: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the beauty of software. You can share it with his next client.
[00:47:47] Dana Schneider: Hardware too. You know, everybody loves sexy software, but a Porsche dashboard on a broken Kia is not going to help anyone. I mean, I love Kia. I didn't mean it that way, but [00:48:00] you know, a fancy picture is not doing anybody any good.
[00:48:04] James Dice: That's Well, thank you, Dana. Thank you, Etrit, for coming on the show. I think this is a great case study, and I hope you guys come back when everything's all rolled out and you can tell us the final results.
[00:48:14] Dana Schneider: Sounds great. Thanks for having us.
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[00:48:37] Make sure to tag us in the post so we can see it. Have a good one.
"Our work is modernizing assets. We're modernizing infrastructure, we're making everything more resilient, more robust, more efficient, more reliable. And so we've done intensive studies in every building, always leading with the Empire State Building and publishing everything that we do for free for the market to learn from around, how do we do it? What is the technical case? What is the engineering case? What is the economic case? And then what policy decisions are required to make us succeed?â
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âDana Schneider
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Episode 155 is a conversation with Dana Schneider from Empire State Realty Trust and Etrit Demaj from KODE Labs.
Episode 155 features Dana Schneider from Empire State Realty Trust and Etrit Demaj from KODE Labs and is our 5th episode in the Case Study series looking at real-life, large-scale deployments of smart building technologies. These are not marketing fluff stories, these are lessons from leaders that others can put into use in their smart buildings programs. Dana dives into their systematic approach to building retrofits, leading with The Empire State Building, and why they publish what they do. Enjoy!
You can find Dana and Etrit on LinkedIn.
Overview (02:49)
Empire State Realty Trust Portfolio (04:16)
Who are the partners (05:41)
Vital technologies (08:38)
Introduction to Etrit Demaj (12:46)
What was missing from a software and controls standpoint (13:58)
Recognizing the value of software (19:30)
Lessons learned (25:10)
Seeing results (38:35)
Whatâs next (47:01)
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Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tigerâlicensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S490220-15083.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
[00:00:00] Dana Schneider: Empire State Realty Trust has been a leader in the field of investing in deep energy retrofits, um, and now in decarbonization, bringing a 10 million square foot portfolio to, uh, with the goal of net zero for well over 15 years. Our work is modernizing assets. We're modernizing infrastructure, we're making everything more resilient, more robust, more efficient, more reliable.
[00:00:24] And so everything that we're doing adds value. And so we've done intensive studies in every building, um, always leading with the Empire State Building and publishing everything that we do for free for the market to learn from around, um, how do we do it? What is the technical case? What is the engineering case?
[00:00:42] What is the economic case? And then what policy decisions are required to make us succeed?
[00:00:50] James Dice: Hey friends If you like the Nexus podcast, the best way to continue the learning is to join our community. There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus ProMembership. It's our global [00:01:00] community of smart building professionals. We have monthly events, paywall deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month.
[00:01:08] Second, you can upgrade from the ProMembership to our courses offering. It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses taught by world leading experts on each topic under the smart buildings umbrella. Third and finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions.
[00:01:27] The links are below in the show notes, and now let's go on to the podcast.
[00:01:35] All right, welcome to the Nexus podcast. This is the fifth episode in our series diving into case studies of real life large scale deployments of smart building technologies. And I emphasize real life because we're not here to create a marketing fluff story. We're here to share lessons from leaders that others can put to use in their buildings programs.
[00:01:54] I emphasize large scale because we're not talking about pilot projects, we're talking about big time deployments [00:02:00] across many buildings or deep into one building. And today we have a story coming out of New York City about Empire State Realty Trust's journey to use smart building technology to decarbonize the portfolio.
[00:02:11] And I have Dana Schneider here, Senior Vice President, Director of Energy and Sustainability at Empire State Realty Trust. Welcome, Dana. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[00:02:21] Dana Schneider: Uh, thanks for having me, James. Uh, as you said, I'm the Director of Energy Sustainability and ESG here at Empire State Realty Trust.
[00:02:30] Um, I have been working with Empire State Realty Trust since 2007, um, but I've been working here full time since 2019. Um, before this, I worked for 18 years as the Managing Director at JLL, um, where I led energy and sustainability projects, um, and. Uh, before that I was a mechanical engineer at Flack Kurtz, which is WSP Parsons Spring Grove.
[00:02:52] James Dice: Awesome. And can you tell us a little bit about the portfolio? I think, um, the Empire State Building is obviously like the most famous building in the entire [00:03:00] world. Um, can you tell us about the, the little bit more context on the rest of the portfolio?
[00:03:04] Dana Schneider: Sure. Well, the portfolio is obviously, uh, it's an incredible portfolio, mainly based in New York City, uh, and the surrounding metropolitan areas.
[00:03:13] Primarily large commercial office buildings mixed in with retail and 800 multifamily units. So it's a pretty diverse portfolio, but we do leverage the fact that the Empire State Building is one of the buildings in our portfolio in order to really highlight the work that we do and to use it as literal and figurative lightning rod, uh, to drive.
[00:03:33] Change and to inform policy, to run pilots, to show what technologies work, what paid backs work, uh, what does it take in order to make this kind of work successful? Um, what has worked, what hasn't worked, what could happen in the market in order for it to work better? Um, and just to never stop, you know, people are often asking when things are done and this kind of work continues, right?
[00:03:55] Um, so I think that's really important. Uh, so that's our portfolio. [00:04:00]
[00:04:00] James Dice: Absolutely. And this is a great time to do this podcast, and it's a great fit for this conversation because that's kind of how we're going to approach the rest of this podcast, which is, let's talk about this in terms of what other building owners can learn, what other buyers can learn that are coming sort of behind you when they go to use technology in their decarbonization roadmap.
[00:04:21] Um, so just so we sort of set the context real quick, I'm going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions around this case study itself. Um, so first of all, and these can be like really quick back and forth. So who's on your vendor team? Who are you looking for, um, to sort of round out the, the technology team, but also service providers that are helping you with this.
[00:04:41] Dana Schneider: So one of our most important, my most important partner in the work is my engineering partner. Um, right. This is, it's core engineering work. Um, and so Buro Happold, uh, is. The engineer who I partner with on the net zero work, uh, in the Empire State Building and across the portfolio, all of the properties, including the [00:05:00] multifamily, uh, the commercial, the retail, we look at everything.
[00:05:03] And, uh, so the Buro Happold team has been incredible, you know, and from the outset, you know, they bought into it. We, uh, Empire State Realty Trust, and I was trying to achieve here, right, which is this requirement to really think outside the box, to not think about what people in New York City were used to doing, right?
[00:05:19] Going from the, even the best run building here, the best design building here, is still as often rooted in what people have often done for years here. Um, and I really, New that in order to, you know, target net zero, which we define as an 80 percent reduction, uh, in emissions was going to take a different kind of a perspective.
[00:05:40] Right? Um, so they bring a global perspective, which I think is really important. In fact, my partner, um, there is not from. The U. S. He's not from New York and the bulk of his projects until coming here are based all over Europe, which gives us a great perspective on different typologies of technologies that are certainly well [00:06:00] proven, just not often used here.
[00:06:02] Um, and I needed that perspective, right, to step outside of the comfort zone, but still know that the technologies would work. Right. And it's very interesting how people get. Stuck in, you know, what has always what we've always done. Um, now we need to do something different, right? Um, and I think that that's been an amazing part of working here and working with Tony, um, and our board understanding that that if you can make your business case, um, and show that it all comes back to, uh, Objective modeling, which it does, um, that these are actually better investments than not doing them.
[00:06:38] And I think it's a critical time for the world to see that, um, but certainly to show here, um, by being an early adopter, we, we deliver those returns because of the work itself. Um, but we... Deliver on, on other returns in the modernization of these assets ahead of the game. Um, and in reducing risk of, you know, [00:07:00] compliance or disclosure or what investors may be looking for, whether they're America based or other.
[00:07:05] James Dice: Yeah. So can you talk about the technology stack itself, like what types of technologies are vital in what you're, what you're doing?
[00:07:14] Dana Schneider: So people are always asking for what's the one thing that made the biggest difference? What is one thing we can do to get our building a zero? Or even when we were talking about the net, the deep energy retrofit, you know, what's the one most important thing you did?
[00:07:27] Um, and we've always used the phrase that it's silver buckshot, not. A silver bullet, um, when you're going for even where we started, which was like a 40 percent energy reduction, which is massive, right? Um, and certainly now with the target of net zero emissions reduction, there's not one thing, right? We actually have lists of of over 100 interventions that will take in each.
[00:07:50] Building, um, some of them overlap and some of them don't, but really it's more the category than the vendor themselves. Right? And you really have to look at the entire building as a whole. [00:08:00] Um, we generally will work from the outside in as we develop all of our ideas for the measures. So we start with the envelope.
[00:08:08] You know, and we've already done projects, uh, just to use the Empire State Building example of retrofitting all of the windows, um, reusing over 96 percent of the window materials, doing all the work on site, and quadrupling their performance. Um, we added insulation, um, behind every radiator, under every window, um, which is huge, and the, uh, we've done weatherization, um, as well, and we do projects like that in every building.
[00:08:32] Right. We start it there. We test it there. We pilot things there, and then we roll them out and scale them. Um, so the envelope work is really step one, uh, because that has a tremendous impact on what you do with your heating and your cooling. Um, as we move, you know, to the heating and the cooling, um, we also look at right sizing, um, which is critical.
[00:08:53] And that's why your envelope work really should be done first, um, because otherwise you lose a pretty big opportunity for right sizing your equipment. [00:09:00] Um, and so we look. At the tenant usage and what our ultimate goals are for having more efficient tenants, we have high performance design and construction guidelines that we began in 2009, which are very specific and help all of our tenants.
[00:09:15] We've proven the business case and the return on investment on the tenant side as well. But those reductions in tenant energy usage. Super efficient HVAC distribution, um, efficient appliances, using plug load controls, using advanced lighting controls. You know, in the beginning, I had to prove a business case for daylight dimming.
[00:09:33] Now let's code. But those are things that we have really led on, um, as well as the indoor environmental quality measures, right? We never compromise on that. Um, so things like CO2 sensors and, um, Active air purification and MERV 13 filters in 100 percent of our units. That's always been our standard, um, for well over a decade.
[00:09:53] So these are things that we've always focused on. Once you have those loads over time, right? Because we [00:10:00] renovate tenant spaces as they renew or as they roll, right? You're not going to really try to not intervene, um, then we can go to the central plants, um, and the HVAC system typology itself. Um, and optimize those systems, either replacement or the replacement of a central plan or boilers is something that happens on a 20 or 25 year scale.
[00:10:20] Um, we do a tremendous amount of reuse and retrofitting as well. It's kind of amazing with well maintained equipment what you could do without replacement. Um, and for other things when we're replacing, um. You know, we have a vision, and that's why our goal is 2030 net zero for the Empire State Building, 2035 for the portfolio as a target.
[00:10:39] That happens over a 10 or 15 year period with the tenants and with the equipment when it, as they roll. Uh, and so those, um, revisions to things like lighting and lighting controls, we're doing whole, um, upgrades of the building management systems and the overlay of the MSI KODE Labs. Now, it's 1 of our most [00:11:00] important projects, but by itself, that wouldn't.
[00:11:03] Be the 80 percent reduction we're looking for.
[00:11:05] James Dice: Totally, totally. And, and that's a great segue to bring in Etrit, uh, Demaj here. Hey Etrit, you haven't been on the show before, but your brother has, uh, welcome. Welcome again to you guys at KODE Labs to come on the show. Uh, can you introduce yourself?
[00:11:20] Etrit Demaj: Yeah. Hey guys.
[00:11:21] Uh, thanks for having me, James. And again, thanks for having us, uh, another episode too. Um, just real quick, Etrit Demaj. One of the co founders of KODE Labs. KODE Labs has been around since October of 2017. We are a smart building cloud with the right applications for different use cases within, you know, different buildings.
[00:11:43] I think we've, we've, you know, just to, you know, add, we've, we've had some really great Success and growth throughout these years. But really our biggest success has been, you know, working really closely with clients like Dana and others. Help us continue to [00:12:00] keep driving forward and then really learn other parts of real estate too and other parts of how buildings should be working.
[00:12:06] So we can continue to keep evolving our platform too. driving that bright customer success, um, regardless of what the outcome is.
[00:12:16] James Dice: So you've talked about all the different energy conservation measures, all the different, um, sort of, um, retrofit, uh, measures to decarbonize the portfolio, but from a software and control standpoint, can you talk about what was missing specifically that led you to sort of say, well, we need to rethink about this technology stack.
[00:12:36] Dana Schneider: So. As part of our roadmap development to our net zero targets, um, and whether your target is net zero, or if you just want to do as much as you can, an essential part of that must be the building management system, um, and the control sequence, the sequence of operations. So this is literally the language.
[00:12:56] That communicates with all of your equipment in the building, all of it, [00:13:00] um, to automate as much as possible, but also just basic optimization. Um, as we developed our plans for what is, we call ESRT 2. 0. It's our net zero targets. Um, what we're doing there is constantly balancing costs and savings for payback, right?
[00:13:18] We have to report to our stakeholders and we have to make sure we always deliver for them. Um, And one of the most important things we're doing on that is the controls themselves, making sure these systems are automated, intelligent, that we take advantage of new technologies, but also make sure that they're reliable.
[00:13:35] And so the upgrades we'll be doing across the entire portfolio, which is largely underway in our building management systems, align with and then exceed. ASHRAE guideline 36, which is the high performance controls guidelines from ASHRAE. Our goal is to be 1 of the 1st to take existing systems and upgrade them to that level.
[00:13:56] Um, I think it's an extremely important. lesson [00:14:00] for everyone because a new building becomes an existing building the second people move into it. Um, and so if we're going to make a difference here, the most important thing is to focus on the buildings which are occupied, whether they're 1931 like the Empire State Building or a brand new building from the ground up, this is an essential piece of the work.
[00:14:20] Um, and so as part of that update, um, we also want to make sure that our new systems integrate beyond what a building management system is able to do. Right. A building management system is, there are many ways to market a building management system when you're selling one, but if you're the one using a building management system, um, they're still pretty, uh, they're not always user friendly, um, in the way they interface with the engineers.
[00:14:43] Um, and they don't always integrate different technologies into them. In fact, they generally do not. Right? Uh, many of them are sold by big global companies that make them proprietary, even if the underlying hardware or software is not meant to be prior. Uh, proprietary, and you know that I understand why people do that, but [00:15:00] it doesn't help the industry progress.
[00:15:01] Um, so what we're going for is an open protocol, um, systems that are based on the best available technologies where they'll be completely transparent to us and the people who run our systems and that we'll be able to continue to upgrade them over time to be the most efficient programming possible. And as equipment gets.
[00:15:23] Replaced and restored and excuse me, not restored, but replaced and, um, retrofit. Um, there are, there is always a programming set that goes with that as best practice. Um, and on top of that, we want to be able to tie into the latest, greatest other optimization technologies that may not be a BMS, right? So if we want to partner with Lutron on advanced lighting controls and tie it into our BMS, that's a whole rigmarole of licensing and all this.
[00:15:48] Crap, we don't need to do that, right? We've been looking for an, well, we would need to do that. We don't want to need to do that. Um, we have an optimization software company that we work with for [00:16:00] demand management and demand response events. We have a company that we work with on real time water usage. We have tenant energy, you know, billing and all those are different companies, which is typical.
[00:16:11] We wanted to integrate them into one place. Um, but we just. Don't just want to see them. We want to use them for integrated optimization. Um, and so I'd been looking for years, well over 10 years, um, for a technology that would enable us to do that, a master systems integrator that also is technology agnostic that will take the best of the best of what we have and tie it all in together for us to be able to optimize our buildings in real time, um, and over time.
[00:16:36] Uh, and so Etrit and I have been partnering, um, working together since last year, 2022. Um, To, uh, leverage the platform of KODE Labs as a master systems integrator, um, which will tie in and integrate all of the different, um, pretty advanced and great technologies that we have used over the years, um, to take them and magnify their [00:17:00] power by having them work together, um, and then also overlay on the BMS, which is the most important piece of it, uh, for us, where we'll be able to transparently see our control sequences.
[00:17:10] We'll be able to do continuous commissioning on that and we'll have real fault diagnostics detection and other ways, um, to, to double check, make sure things are installed and programmed and working in real time the way that we intend, um, and be able to make those updates as a team as we go. Um, so we were really looking for that transparency and that partnership towards optimization.
[00:17:32] James Dice: Absolutely. The other piece that I love about this is there aren't a lot of people that are sitting in your position that recognize. It's the importance of controls and digitization and a
[00:17:42] data layer to
[00:17:43] bring all of these things together. No, but can you talk about that when you talk to your peers is why don't they get this or do they?
[00:17:51] Maybe there's an insider group that when I talk to sustainability folks, it's only the folks that came from controls or came from smart buildings to get into the [00:18:00] sustainability role that get this. If you came from the other way. It seems like there's a lot of education that we still need to do around the role of software and decarbonization.
[00:18:11] Yeah. Do you have any insight into why that is? Why, um, you know, the sustainability folks don't necessarily recognize the value of software in the decarbonization process?
[00:18:22] Dana Schneider: So I think there's a lot of differences in the way rules are structured. Um, my role is unique in the fact that it's, you know, energy and sustainability from an engineering perspective, um, and the performance of the assets and the, um, Infrastructure of the buildings.
[00:18:38] Um, so, you know, um, ESG is focused on, uh, the reporting and the disclosure, which is extremely important part of the work, of course. Um, and it's pretty common. I think that that role is separate from the engineering group, um, or, um, You know, or that they just, uh, [00:19:00] communicate back and forth to get the information they need from the engineering group.
[00:19:03] I think, in my opinion, um, for these programs to work in a way where the performance is optimized, the engineering, um, piece is critical part of it. So, the, uh, integration of the, um, Net zero goals, the sustainability goals, the performance goals, um, because all of the metrics that we're seeing, whether it's legislation or investor disclosures or, uh, just annual reporting or the SEC is going with their ruling, all depends on showing progress against goals, which means that disclosure alone is not enough, you know, disclosure and showing progress and what your plans are is where we need to be.
[00:19:40] So the integration of the engineering itself into the sustainability work to me is, Um, the right way to do this. And it's really important that we, you know, work together as a team on, um, engineering sustainability, uh, which also brings you the new infrastructure, the modernization, the resiliency, it's, it's, they're inextricable, [00:20:00] um, I think.
[00:20:01] James Dice: Etrit, can you talk about what Dana was just talking about in terms of. You know, digging into the control stack and realizing that, you know, I want to implement these new control sequences, these state of the art control sequences from ASHRAE, and I don't have a supervisory control layer that's capable of doing that.
[00:20:18] So you probably hear that a lot with a lot of your customers. Can you talk about sort of how you're sort of trying to fill that gap?
[00:20:25] Etrit Demaj: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Um, so there, there's a lot of ways to, to, to talk about that. I think the first thing that we're, that I will say is. Um, ESRT is one of the first that's really going deep on Astra G36 and making it a standard across the portfolio, right?
[00:20:43] So from our perspective, what we've been able to do there and what we're continuing to do as the, you know, as a retrofit is going on, um, is that, um, from a technology stack, the goal is to make it, to figure out scalability, but [00:21:00] also to figure out transparency and then in a lot of ways, To see the same thing.
[00:21:04] So like from like whether whoever the vendor is. That is programming G36 or turning on G36 in different, let's say, floors or buildings to be able to bring it back, digitally commission that and make sure that it is working per standard, but then turning on the right, um, uh, rules. Tools and then visualization that is as standard as can be and then tying that to the rest of the systems and also working with the different operators, uh, within the buildings to add some level of customizations based on, you know, what they want to also see on top of just what, uh, you know, what the standards are, because every building does have different ways of working and operating.
[00:21:51] So this gets you, from our perspective, it gets you to that 60, 70, 80%. And then that 20%, you know, is part of the [00:22:00] change management side where, hey, how, you know, how are the operators working, what do they want to be able to see, and then keeping that, you know, structure in place to continue to keep evolving and growing within, um, within the, the stack of, you know, the control stack, right?
[00:22:16] And then I think another part is really the, the fact that most systems out there, when, when you're trying to kind of visualize things. Um, and what differentiates, like, KODE is that we're, you know, we're, we're, we're bi directional. We're able to quickly enable, you know, users quickly enable new, um, you know, new data points.
[00:22:41] And then, regardless of what the underlying system is, um, see what, you know, what type of data could also be missing. So that way, when that, you know, retrofit is happening, um, have a good, uh, method for success and a path to, um, a process that actually, you know, [00:23:00] comes out to the right outcome.
[00:23:02] James Dice: Great. Great. Um, so can you guys talk about, okay, the This project that you've done, I think we're, we at Nexus are trying to get super focused in on, okay, this is a very innovative project.
[00:23:13] There aren't a lot of these out there. How do we tell, you know, the people that are following along what the lessons learned were? Um, so Dan, can you talk about when you're implementing this? It's really a newer software layer in the stack for a lot of people. You know, a lot of times you just install.
[00:23:30] Building, building management system with like huge air quotes to manage your control sequences. Um, some people bring in a separate fault detection diagnostics application. Um, what you guys are doing is bringing everything together into one platform, all of your systems, but then also going deep on the HVAC control layer, um, portion.
[00:23:52] Can you talk about some of the lessons learned with that, um, that other people could learn from when they try to copy this, this approach?
[00:23:58] Dana Schneider: So I think [00:24:00] that, um, a lot of times, uh, A building team, um, will have a building management system and, and the assumption, especially like at an executive level, it's like, oh, well, we have a BMS, so obviously it's optimized.
[00:24:14] Um, and I can't tell you how many times in my career that has been the assumption of other people, never me. Um, and it's so funny to be like the, from the engineering perspective of it, to try to explain. And it's a hard pill to swallow, right? Because you're saying, well, you've spent all this money on your building management system, which has likely been pitched to you by the building management system seller.
[00:24:36] Um, like it's the panacea and everything is optimized. The building management system on its own isn't optimized at all. And frankly, if your control sequence isn't advanced, or isn't complete, or isn't good, or isn't transparent, you might not even have great controls going on in a building, even a brand new one.
[00:24:52] Um, I think that the industry doesn't have enough experts in control sequences. Um, I think [00:25:00] that the globalization, you know, these giant global companies, the building management systems, um, have a ton of potential, um, but the service side in the markets for all of them is challenged. Um. You know, and at JLL, I worked in all kinds of different markets and all kinds of different buildings.
[00:25:16] And it was so dependent on your individual person who serviced your building, what you would get. Um, and I think it's still like that, right? It becomes, um, highly localized and very hit or miss if you have the right person. Um, I don't think that a lot of engineering firms specialize in writing good control sequences.
[00:25:35] Um. So for anyone out there who's in school or looking for a job, um, you, this is an amazing opportunity. Um, these are fantastic jobs. You know, it's basically coding for buildings. Um, and we could do way better than we're doing now. So the idea is acknowledging, you know, there's like no ego here and acknowledging that you might have done something yourself.
[00:25:55] But that doesn't mean you're done. Um, and you might have specified something and agree to it yourself, but that [00:26:00] doesn't mean it's as good as it's going to be because tomorrow something better will come out. Um, and so what we embarked on and, and in trying to get to net zero is the idea of, um, knowing exactly what our control sequence is.
[00:26:14] are. Um, so that was step one, right? Um, and you might be surprised how difficult it was. Well, some of our partners have been amazing. Um, most of our partners actually have been amazing and fully disclosed what they programmed and let us see our own control sequence that we Rote, right? But you would be surprised, um, you know, the lack of transparency in a lot of systems, which are meant to be open protocol, but are run as proprietary because it benefits the industry to have a monopoly on everything that happens in that building.
[00:26:46] And that's really what has happened. Um, I think it wasn't intended. I'd like to think the best of people and that they didn't intend for it to be that way. Um, but if you want the best products, you know, you can't be beholden to the same one [00:27:00] Um, and so the idea of being able to see, uh, transparently what was actually installed and to overlay optimization on top of that, um, is a critical part of getting to where we need to be.
[00:27:12] So the acknowledgement that a BMS alone is not optimization, um, the acknowledgement that a BMS, if I can't see the control sequence, um, doesn't work, right? How do I even know that, um, the way that I think the system is running is really how it's running if I can't see that programming. Totally. Um, and so the, the exposure of, of our own control sequence, which we have written, um, to us is, is a critical part of the work.
[00:27:41] Um, and the partnership with, uh, uh, KODE Labs, um, to be agnostics and objective around how it's, Running is, is critical, right? Because nobody wants to go in and criticize their own system. Um, and that's been really interesting, you know, from the early days of writing like commissioning specs. [00:28:00] Um, you know, generally that third party commissioning agent is really important.
[00:28:04] Um, and even if it's the same company, you want an independent team from the same company to do it. You know, this kind of gives you that. Right, because JCI is not in JCI's best interest to tell you JCI's system is not doing what JCI's system is supposed to do. And I'm only using it as an example because we have Metasys in the Empire State Building, which is an amazing BMS.
[00:28:22] Um, but the interesting piece of it is, you know, JCI isn't writing the control sequence, it's given to them. And that's where, you know, that, that whole, um, Not being egotistical and instead of, you know, saying, what can we do better all the time comes in, right? Because there's no finger pointing. And again, we'll use Johnson as the example because our Empire Stapling partner, um.
[00:28:46] JCI didn't write the control sequence that was programmed, right? Our engineers did at our direction. And so that, that, um, lack of finger pointing becomes important, right? We just want to see how it got programmed. If it's [00:29:00] something that we designed five years ago, there might be something way better we could do now.
[00:29:04] Um, and as we implement our 2. 0 program, which You know, for the Empire State Building is something we developed in 2020 and 2021, you know, now we're rolling out guideline 36 in the Empire State Building. We're retrofitting existing equipment to be the equipment of 2030 and 2035, you know, not the equipment of 2010 or 2020 anymore.
[00:29:23] That kind of partnership and willingness to add advances. Really important and transparency as we do that is key to making sure it gets done right. And then it continues to be upgraded. Um, so the exposure of the sequences is critical to optimization of a building management system. And I would say there's no one tool, but the most critical tool is being able to see what you've programmed in your automation and the controls of all the energy using systems in that building.
[00:29:50] Etrit Demaj: Just to add to what Dana was saying earlier. Thank you. About, like, BMSs and, you know, going deeper from, you know, having the right, um, uh, [00:30:00] the definition of how control sequences should be working and working on that. I think some of the lessons learned, too, are really, um, there's, the reality is there's a real shortage in the industry for people that actually know how to do these things really, really well, right?
[00:30:16] Even from a programming perspective, regardless of what type of vendor it is, um, so that I think the technologies part. Can, you know, building around that can continue to help, you know, um, make that part a little bit smoother and that experience more 2023 and not 1993. So like, that's a really big part of all buildings.
[00:30:40] And I think like from that perspective, we, we, we, we need to be conscious of that. Right. So like lessons learned are if the hardware providers. Are going to continue to keep evolving and building, they should build to understand to make sure that there's a better way to program which is more of like [00:31:00] buttons.
[00:31:00] Hey, turn G36 on a little bit faster, then don't charge me 200, 000 to turn G36 on. Like, are you crazy? Like, there's like, it is 2023. I think we're going to get there. More and more.
[00:31:14] James Dice: Okay, so transparency around, uh, control sequences, that's lesson learned number one. What's, uh, number two? What's, what's a big lesson learned from this project?
[00:31:22] Dana Schneider: Um, I think that understanding that there will always be changed in order for there to be progress is, is a really important lesson and to not be afraid of that, um, you know, it's work. Um, but we all have jobs, right? So I think it's really important, um, to acknowledge that, you know, this type of work, and frankly, keeping any building up and running, including your own home or your own apartment, right?
[00:31:45] Um, it's continuous work. So making sure that that work is informed, um, I think is the most important. Lesson, frankly, right? Investing in the right analysis up front to develop what your plan long term will be, [00:32:00] and then not being afraid to update that plan as new technologies become available and as you learn more.
[00:32:05] Um, that, that's really at the core of this, right? Um, understanding that integration of the performance of the asset, that sustainability performance or the modernization performance, whatever you want to call it, that optimization has to be part of the work from inception all the time. When you plan it that way, That's where your amazing payback comes in because you have to replace x y date anyway.
[00:32:29] When you do that, know what your plan is to update it at the right, in the right way, um, to to deliver maximum performance, the maximum returns.
[00:32:38] James Dice: And I think that, that, that's sort of hits at the value of having a data layer installed that you can then, Install applications on top of I say on top of that's not exactly how they're sitting in the cloud.
[00:32:51] There's no,
[00:32:51] Dana Schneider: there's no like top cloud, but it is on the data, right? The data layer is the base. It's literally the basis of everything we do. So, um, [00:33:00] making sure that's correct and accurate, um, and not 3 months delayed, right? It doesn't help me very much to know that there was a problem three months ago in the building.
[00:33:09] Um, so being able to, like, rely on, you know, real time data optimization is really important. Um, and although we do a ton of work like that, having it in a more usable form is... Will be transformative.
[00:33:22] James Dice: Absolutely.
[00:33:22] Etrit Demaj: I think just, just to add to that, to, you know, kind of what, what you guys are saying too is, um, from, from a KODE perspective and also some lessons learned that for is, is if the building, obviously, like, if you have a thousand devices in a building.
[00:33:38] Don't get stuck on the 50 devices that you may not be able to do something with right away, right? Start to show value where you can show value and be able to give that value faster to the end user but also to the partners in these vendors because they're working really hard like they're like they're putting in a lot of You know, hours, a lot of sweat, [00:34:00] and then they're also just, everybody's trying to do the right thing.
[00:34:03] So, like, it, sometimes it takes time to get more and more aligned. But when you do get aligned, you know, like Dana, we see it. Like, you start to fly more and more, right? Like, from all the way to, from the, the, the, the, the, the vendors in the building, to the technology, to the operators, to the different users.
[00:34:20] And you start to come together more and more when they start to actually see data. And then, it's much easier to tackle. The problem childs. So like what I mean by that is the actual equipment or more proprietary things because you can start to show them and say, Hey, look, you want to keep coming on board?
[00:34:38] You want to keep coming on board? Cause everybody does. At times they just it's just a nervous thing, right? Like, oh, you're gonna take my things or you're not like no That's not the case. We're just gonna all work together to continue to drive this whole, you know Decarbonization in this project 2. 0.
[00:34:55] James Dice: Absolutely. Okay, any other any other lessons learned that are coming to mind?
[00:34:59] Dana Schneider: I think [00:35:00] the idea of making sure that you, you have to look at the holistic entity, right? It's the entire building and all of the systems in it. Um, so you can't, you know, in typical energy audits, um, the envelope is usually ignored, uh, tenant equipment is usually ignored, human behavior is usually ignored.
[00:35:18] So I think it's really important to say, um, that all of these systems interact with each other and they all have a part to play in that optimization. Um, and there's no reason to say, Stay away from it or shy away from it, right? Um, as a landlord arming our tenants with these tools, you know, that's, that's, that's tenant service, right?
[00:35:35] They're our clients. Um, so working with them to give them, uh, a net zero space, a carbon neutral space, a well health safety certified space, all those things that we're doing is for them, um, and helps us lease space, and it also helps our tenants. All of whom have sustainability performance in their top five, if not more higher up on their priority list.
[00:35:57] Um, it gives that to them, right? You [00:36:00] choose an Empire State Realty Trust building, you're automatically getting that performance. You don't have to do it. You're also automatically getting all that data you need for your own disclosures, right? We have it. We're keeping it. We'll give it to you. And I think that that kind of thing should be looked at like a service.
[00:36:13] And, and it's something that's really important, um, for us to lead on and, and deliver.
[00:36:18] James Dice: Yeah. And that's like another sort of playbook, uh, item that I would go back to, which is, um, not viewing sustainability or decarbonization as something that's off in the silo. It's actually needs to be integrated into the business, which is your business is serving your tenants and providing a space for them to be productive and have a good experience.
[00:36:38] And I see a lot of people that kind of view this as like, well, we need to optimize our HVAC system, and they don't talk to any users about it or any of the operations folks. And it's like viewed as this science project, but it's like, no, this is a business that, you know, all of this is providing a comfortable environment, a productive environment, healthy indoor air quality.
[00:36:58] It's not just there to consume [00:37:00] energy or. be reduced, right? This is a holistic system that needs to be paid attention to. I love that. Um, can we talk about kind of close this conversation off with talking about the results that you've seen. I think that's a good way to sort of conclude, um, you guys have gone down this path.
[00:37:18] It's a pretty new path. Um, there are others that might be thinking about following you. So what are the, what are the results that you could, you would speak to them about? Here.
[00:37:27] Etrit Demaj: Yeah. Um, so I think from like the results perspective, there's just what we tend to see. Um, uh, I think like. A huge one is, is like standardizing, like the approach, standardizing the reporting and then standardizing even from like a documentation.
[00:37:48] That's a first, you know, I think what I would consider a pretty big success, um, as, as a team altogether. The second part is being able to get your digital [00:38:00] commissioning, um, and then understand. Regardless of which building or which location there's work being done and regardless of what type of vendor really, at the end of the day, understanding that data and then being able to train end users on how to actually run digital commissioning or continuous commissioning the same way helps the Thank you.
[00:38:24] portfolio continue to keep getting more centralized. So from the approach of, look, regardless of how I work in my building, what definitely, you know, maybe I have less floors or more tenants and less tenants, we're still going to run the same goals in the same way. And, and then start to come up with planning and then start to use the tools in a way that that's useful.
[00:38:47] One of the. Uh, the big reasons why I think, uh, we, we really started to have a great relationship with Empire State Realty Trust, with Buro Happold as well. And obviously we've done [00:39:00] a lot of work with Buro Happold in, in other places and they've been able to see that I think with some of the tools that we have, which is one of them is called a functional testing tool and it's really a digital commissioning tool.
[00:39:12] So everything that you just talked about, what it does is. It allows you to be able to see how your equipment is working, or is something maybe like, is the heating not working, or is the cooling not working? But also, is it, is it, is it maintaining the G36 programming levels that it needs to maintain? And then, with the...
[00:39:35] Again, going back to with the, with the, uh, specifications of Buro Happold and Dana and Dana's team to be able to add that kind of logic portfolio wide, right? So, like, now you don't have to worry about how it looks, where, or what human is programming what, but as soon as somebody says it's done, you can cross reference these things.
[00:39:59] And then digit [00:40:00] commission, but then not stop there, be able to continuously commission based on whether it's some kind of a rebate or whether it's some kind of just, it's just a process or there's an issue somewhere to get to the dollars faster so you can have, you know, um, I'm not even gonna say less truck rolls, but really just get the data so that way the partners and the vendors and the service contractors Can, can, can, can do what they need to do faster, or also the engineers in the building.
[00:40:29] Um, and then the other part of the success is, like Dana was talking, tying in other, like, systems, like Portfolio Manager, and many other ones that are out there, um, to start, um, seeing how that data is coming in, how it works together. And then tracking also that the utilities reporting per sub metering too, right?
[00:40:52] So like Empire State Realty Trust, really far along. And all we're doing from a success perspective is [00:41:00] just, you know, restructuring and then having a good ontology in place for that too. To where now it's much easier to share this kind of reports. And then this is, again, this is part of the ongoing. And we feel really good about some of the outcomes and some of the things that have come in that are, that are basically coming, uh, uh, coming live here.
[00:41:21] Um, and obviously with when you, when you have a, a client like Empire State Realty Trust, who believes from, again, like Dana, you said from the board to the CEO, like seeing on LinkedIn that Tony Malkin just re shared a bunch of, you know, posts about, ESG and like what ESRT is, right? You don't see that many CEOs doing that, you know?
[00:41:44] So like that kind of gives you a pretty good idea of, you know, where they want to go and, and how serious they are. And when they are that serious, you have to show success too, right? Because nobody has time for, for, for just to... Trial and there,
[00:41:57] James Dice: Dana, how about, how about you from your perspective, [00:42:00] um, results wise?
[00:42:02] Dana Schneider: So the way that we, we have always, uh, approached these jobs, uh, from the beginning in 2007, um, is to be able to, again, you. Use that data based approach, um, and demonstrate that there's a business case to be made for these investments. Um, so that no matter who the audience is, whatever their priority is, everyone's priority is to make money.
[00:42:27] Um, and so we want to do good, um, but we also want to make money. Uh, and it's essential that we do that. We're a publicly traded company. And I think that, you know, to be a leader comes a responsibility to demonstrate both things, right? Um, Being able to say what's technically possible. And our case studies actually, I have to put in a PSA for this because we've actually published all of our case studies, um, for free, uh, in Partnership and NYSERDA.
[00:42:55] Um, and they're all posted. We can provide the link. James, I'll give it to you to [00:43:00] share with the audience because our goal is, you know, we've We don't want to only do this at the Empire State Building, um, we want to use the most exciting, most beautiful, most famous building in the world because it's exciting for people to learn from a building like her, right, but she is meant to be the example for everybody else to follow, um, and we've taken that role really seriously to demonstrate, um, what can be done, um, and so to say that Local Law 97 can be achieved or that Net Zero can be achieved, can be achieved.
[00:43:31] When these other things happen, right, it's not easy, um, but when the grid in New York does what the grid is meant to do, um, when it's meant to do it, um, and when these technologies come together and we can rely on the amazing incentives that we can partner with NYSERDA and Con Ed to help with some of the new technologies that we're going to pilot and when we can, um, integrate these designs with the rollout of, um, Upgrades to our infrastructure [00:44:00] as as it rolls over a 10 year period.
[00:44:02] And when that happens, we have proven in every single 1 of our buildings and in every single tenant space. We've done that. There's an incredible payback of doing that. The first time that we did our work in the Empire State Building, our deep energy retrofit had a 38 percent guaranteed energy reduction with a 3.
[00:44:20] 1 year payback. And we did M& V every year. We do M& V actually every other week. It's continuous commissioning. That's why we're very serious when we talk about what the KODEÂ Labs will do for us. Because every week or every other week isn't enough for us. We want it in real time now, right? We're, we're, we're speeding up and we're going to the next level.
[00:44:39] And part of making sure, um. That we don't just come up with our plan for net zero, um, that we implement our plan for net zero. And as we pursue these, um, very intensive targets, um, we measure our progress, um, and we understand, you know, what it will take to get there or, you know, are [00:45:00] we going to be a year ahead?
[00:45:01] Are we going to be a year behind? You know, we're not going to, we're going to make sure that every time we do these projects that they stack up to the economic case that we Hold ourselves to, um, and as technology advances, we'll continue to look at new technologies, um, and do better. And that's why, you know, that partnership with KODE Labs, um, and with our BMS providers has been critical, um, because that partnership and transparency, um, is critical to meeting our goals.
[00:45:28] And setting a goal is cute first step, um, but making progress against that goal is the only thing that will drive change.
[00:45:35] James Dice: I think the last question I have for you before we close off, as you talked about 2. 0, Dana, and can you just give us like kind of what's next, like, um, where are you guys headed next?
[00:45:45] Dana Schneider: Yeah. Um, so, you know, what, what is now, like we refer to as our 1. 0 work. That was the original work that we began the analysis in 2007. We did the initial implementation began in 2010, right? So it's [00:46:00] fitting that 2. 0 happens 10 years later. Um, Right? We started that work really in 2020. Uh, and I think that it's logical then that our net zero goal for the Empire State Building is, in fact, a target for 2030.
[00:46:13] Um, and I think that that's realistic, right? And that's a really important part of the story. Um, especially in large buildings, these things don't and shouldn't happen immediately, right? It's very wasteful to take a piece of equipment that has useful life, that's in good shape. Trash it. We would never do that.
[00:46:29] Um, that's not a good use of equipment and it's terrible for embodied carbon, right? Which all matters. Um, so the idea of having these, uh, you know, level setting in real time, um, evolving your plans as you go, but doing like a whole reset maybe every decade is very much appropriate, right? When I think of where we were 10 years ago and where we are today, um.
[00:46:53] The principle of our process has not changed. That still works. Um, the way to do this, the steps to [00:47:00] take, the, the rigor of that is, is right. Um, but the technologies to evaluate, um, what's available to us now, uh, is really important to not be afraid to try. Um, test, but verify, right? We didn't just give this to Etrit.
[00:47:16] We did a tremendous amount of work in the background and got a commitment, you know, that they would be nimble and work with what we wanted, right? I'm not buying what you're selling. I'm buying what I need. Um, and I think that that's really important too, to have a partner who, um, it's a, it's really a two way partnership, um, because the better we can make this tool, the better it is for everybody else down the line who hopefully benefits from the testing and work that we're doing.
[00:47:42] James Dice: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the beauty of software. You can share it with his next client.
[00:47:47] Dana Schneider: Hardware too. You know, everybody loves sexy software, but a Porsche dashboard on a broken Kia is not going to help anyone. I mean, I love Kia. I didn't mean it that way, but [00:48:00] you know, a fancy picture is not doing anybody any good.
[00:48:04] James Dice: That's Well, thank you, Dana. Thank you, Etrit, for coming on the show. I think this is a great case study, and I hope you guys come back when everything's all rolled out and you can tell us the final results.
[00:48:14] Dana Schneider: Sounds great. Thanks for having us.
[00:48:20] Rosy Khalife: Okay, friends, thank you for listening to this episode. As we continue to grow our global community of changemakers, we need your help. For the next couple of months, we're challenging our listeners to share a link to their favorite Nexus episode on LinkedIn with a short post about why you listen. It would really, really help us out.
[00:48:37] Make sure to tag us in the post so we can see it. Have a good one.
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