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"Conductivity is the foundation for everything. We can’t realize high value outcomes without having all of our devices communicate data through a single pipe that we can then normalize, that we can then action, which we can then overlay AI and machine learning on to realize these outcomes. ”
—Thano Lambrinos
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Episode 159 is a conversation with Thano Lambrinos from Quadreal and Wayne Kim from Andorix.
Episode 159 features Thano Lambrinos from Quadreal and Wayne Kim from Andorix and is our 7th episode in the Case Study series looking at real-life, large-scale deployments of smart building technologies. These are not marketing fluff stories, these are lessons from leaders that others can put into use in their smart buildings programs. This conversation explores the partnership between Quadreal and Andorix and how the implementation of a new network has made an impact on Quadreal. Enjoy!
You can find Thano and Wayne on LinkedIn.
Overview (1:32)
Introduction to Thano Lambrinos (2:18)
Who’s on the vendor team (5:40)
Results we’ve seen (7:18)
Introduction to Wayne Kim (8:50)
Goals for this project (14:10)
The partnership (19:30)
Problems with the old network (21:40)
The buying process (25:17)
Deployment phases (28:07)
Keeping the network up and running (33:30)
Passive optical networking (37:10)
Challenges (45:45)
Closing remarks (58:45)
Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tiger—licensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S509585-16073.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
Thano Lambrinos: Connectivity is the foundation for everything that we build on top of it. We can't realize high value outcomes, whether we're trying to maximize operational efficiency, lower our cost, reduce carbon footprint, reduce risk, and improve our cybersecurity posture without having all of our devices. in the building, regardless of system, communicate data through a single pipe that we can then normalize, that we can then action, which we can then overlay AI and machine learning on to realize these outcomes.
So it's a critical Critical piece in QuadReel's overall strategy and hence was the first thing that I really tackled when I got to the firm.
James Dice: Hey friends, if you like the Nexus podcast, the best way to continue the learning is to join our community. There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus Pro Membership.
It's our global community of smart billing professionals. We have monthly events, [00:01:00] paywall deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month. Second, you can upgrade from the ProMembership to our Courses offering. It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses taught by world leading experts on each topic under the smart buildings umbrella.
Third and finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions. The links are below in the show notes. And now let's go on to the podcast.
Welcome to the Nexus podcast. This is the latest episode in our series, diving into case studies. So we're talking real life, large scale deployments of smart building technologies. I think as Stano once said to me, um, I talk about actually doing stuff rather than talking about doing stuff. Um, so I'll emphasize real life because we're not here to create a marketing fluff story.
We're here to share lessons from these leaders that others can put to use in their smart buildings program. So today we have a story [00:02:00] coming from Quad Real Property Group. Um, they're a global real estate company headquartered in Vancouver. Um, with assets all over the, of Canada, the US, UK, Europe, and Asia Pacific.
So Thano, welcome back to the show. Um, we have Thano Lembrinos here, senior vice president, digital buildings and experiences and innovation, big title at QuadReal. Uh, can you talk a little bit more about yourself, uh, and your background?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and thank you for having me again. I always enjoy being on your podcasts and helping advance.
The community and the deployment of technology throughout real estate. Uh, yeah, my title is very long. I wanted something that would fit on two sides of a business card, uh, rather than just one. Um, and, and it was the shortest thing I could come up with for everything that, that, uh, that we do here in our group here at QuadRail, a little bit of background on myself, I've been at QuadRail now for the better part of five years.
A little over five years now. Uh, before that I was in [00:03:00] construction, worked for a large general contractor and then before that in the sub trades. So that upbringing and the adjacencies to technology and the general pragmatic approach that's beaten into you when you learn how to build something from the ground up has really served itself.
Well in me and in the way that we've put the team together in order to implement tech and digitally transform the portfolio in that we've taken a very pragmatic and practical approach to everything that we do. And as you said, uh, actually do stuff and not just talk about doing stuff. So for those who aren't familiar with me and the group.
Uh, that I manage and I'm lucky enough to run here at Quadriel. We're responsible for everything from technology infrastructure in the building. That includes connectivity, which we'll dive into quite a bit today. Um, the systems that connect. Uh, to that infrastructure, whether they be, uh, controls, mechanical controls, lighting, parking, energy [00:04:00] metering, elevators, audio visual systems, you name it, uh, and the integration of those systems to realize a number of outcomes, operational outcomes and use cases, and also the customer platforms.
Uh, recently, my group has also expanded into mechanical and electrical infrastructure deployment, such that we now have a thread. From design through to procurement into construction and commissioning, um, all the way through so that we can realize the outcomes that we're driving for, because we, as we've gone through this journey, have learned that, uh, deploying technology in the built environment isn't possible unless you have the right systems in place and.
Uh, that system design isn't, uh, conducive to the success of the technology unless you have the right infrastructure systems in place. So now we've kind of incorporated all of that in our group to deploy across all of our new developments as well as across all of our existing assets in Canada and are expanding into the U.
S. and the U. [00:05:00] K. and Asia Pacific as you mentioned.
James Dice: Yeah, thanks for coming back. I love your background because it's similar. I think you had a lot more time in construction than I did, but I started in mechanical contracting. I think I told you that at some point, and it's just a way to ground everything that we're talking about here in reality when you have to go on a job site and you have to.
Price a job up, like all of the things that you learn when you're in contracting, uh, really, really benefit all the stuff we talk about on this show. So let's talk about this actual sort of, it's not one project, right? It's a more of a program that you've rolled out across the portfolio. So let me ask some sort of rapid fire questions just to sort of give people context for this sort of case study that we're about to talk about.
So who's on your vendor, uh, team?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, for sure. So, uh, Andorix Wayne, who's joining us today. Is our network integration and managed services partner. Uh, there's a couple of manufacturers that include DZS, uh, or formerly Dawson's zone, uh, as well as [00:06:00] HFR, uh, network manufacture equipment manufacturers, uh, Belden is our cabling, uh, partner that we've deployed.
Um, and, uh, and I think that wraps the, uh, the connectivity platform. And then of course, as we mentioned, there's a number of contractor partners that we've engaged with across the country too. Uh, deploy the actual and install the infrastructure.
James Dice: Totally. And give us a sense for the scale of this. How many buildings are we talking about here?
Thano Lambrinos: Uh, we're over 50 buildings now, I believe, uh, between commercial... Uh, residential and retail. Um, and, uh, that equates to the better part of 30, 20, maybe 30 million square feet and several thousand, uh, residential units. So it's, it's pretty significant.
James Dice: And when did this project start? So I want to give people a sense for how long you've been doing this.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, we've been at it for a while. We started in 2019. There was a little pandemic that I think some people have heard of that. Interrupted some of our flow, but didn't really stop us. Uh, we deployed aggressively through [00:07:00] 2020 and 2021. Uh, we wrapped the vast majority of buildings in the latter part of 21, uh, into 22 and have been adding as we go and in maintenance mode with a number of them.
James Dice: Cool. And last question in our little rapid fire round here, talk about the results that you've either seen since then, or the way that you think about the results from doing this.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, I, I consider this an enormous success, uh, considering the very disparate state that our portfolio was generally in before we started this program.
Uh, the results are both qualitative and quantitative. Uh, from a quantitative perspective, directly related to those sites that had infrastructure, traditional network infrastructure, and we'll talk about the differences as we go through this discussion, uh, we were able to cycle those infrastructures out and save.
Between 60 and 70 percent on capital costs, [00:08:00] uh, and 50 plus percent on our ongoing service costs, uh, for those buildings that had no infrastructure, the visibility that we gained from a, uh, more qualitative standpoint was significant, uh, and the foundation that we laid to allow, allow for future retrofits and expansion, uh, will.
Continue to serve us into the future with everything that we do in those assets, uh, and as we start to look at ways of leveraging the data, the possibilities are endless. So. Just a couple of snippets and we can get into some details as we go. But, uh, but this was a huge deal for us for sure.
James Dice: Yeah, we'll dive into the results a little bit more detail later on.
Wayne Kim is here as well with us, founder and CEO at Andorix. Wayne, can you talk about, um, your history in the industry and sort of, uh, tell us the story of Andorix because this is the first time we've, we've heard from you guys on the show as
well.
Wayne Kim: Sure. Hi, James. Uh, appreciate it, uh, inviting [00:09:00] us, uh, for this.
Um, vocation, I'm, I'm the, the founder and the CEO of Endorex. And really it's a, it's a journey that I've been on for the last 25 years. It's really about technology. And, and when the cloud was not a cloud back in 2000, that's when we started this journey of how to provide a services, manage services or evaluating services for the, the internet industry that is exploding.
And basically what we were doing is that we're providing a. Uh, IT services that are essential to the service providers who are in the data centers that are basically connecting, uh, the, the worldwide web. And we had, you know, we got funded out of California and then, and, and so on, and we grew that until the dot com crashed.
And we had to realize that what is real needs to be is that we need to make money. And so we shut down a whole bunch of things, came back to Canada and focused on like real [00:10:00] services that are going to be generated. And one of the key things is that we partner with the folks who actually own the high, you know, high pipes.
Speed pipes that needs to be able to deliver the massive amount of data. And so that is the, the company that I founded, you know, 25 years ago, 24, 23 years ago. And, and then, and, and basically with that, we grew that business. And in 2015, you know, when, you know, there was a, there was a, this whole concept of, Hey, there is a digitization, there is a smart building ideas.
What can we do with this thing? And so I got onto that, you know, the, the train. And then I said, okay, I've got the IVMP, smart building platform. I want to be able to deploy the first to deploy in the building. And, and we did. And we had, uh, one of the other property owners in Toronto that wanted to do this thing.
And we jumped on it and said, let me put my amazing software in it. And we got there and says, [00:11:00] okay, where's the data? Uh, they said, I don't know. Like, IT people don't know, the building operations people don't know, so we had to literally have our technology engineers go and search out where the networks were.
We were able to find access control. Okay, where is the HVAC? Where is the security? Where's the metering? Like it just goes on and on and on. And it took almost about 4 to 6 months to find all of the network. We needed to bring it into a centralized location where we are able to ingest that data. Right? So.
One thing that I realized that in order to make the building smart, you better have the network before you could start anything. So that was the lesson learned. And at that point, I said, there's no point trying to bring intelligence in a platform into the building without the network. And that building, that I got involved in 2015, was a brand new building.
So that tells [00:12:00] you the state of where people are thinking in terms of how do I create a, you know, digitize this building for the smart journey. And I think that's when I sort of said, you know what? I think we need to relook at this thing because we're not going to be able to make money. We invested like 300, 000 to do this particular project and gave it with nothing.
But what it did was that it taught us that the, the, before you do any journey into this space, You need the network. Network is the key and digitization of that data and bring it into the, what we call the smart building platform or data lake, whatever that needs to be done. You cannot scale the building transformation without that.
So I think that was the, my, my journey to it. And, and after learning that process, I heard about this company called Quadril. That was forming a new company and, and, and going through the innovation journey. And I [00:13:00] wanted to be able to get involved and say, Hey, let's get the network in first before you go through anything else.
I think that was the, the, you know, that was a 2018, I don't know if you remember that. We're going through it. And one of the things that we need to do it cheaper, faster and more effective. And it's got to last. One of the things that we learned from the, the IT is that IT system only lasts for three to four years.
Whereas a building, you know, elevator doesn't last three to four years, it's 20 years. HVAC lasts for 20 years. How do we deliver the platform that will be able to last for 15, 20 years? And one of the first thing we did was, we got to pick as a fiber, as a platform. And because of the future is, is, is going to be, you know, 5G, 6G, all the G's are coming, that requires the fiber as, as a backbone.
Uh, based, uh, based, based on that. And, and then on top of that is that whatever you'd be able to do, you don't have to replace for a lot, uh, you know, 20 years. So those [00:14:00] things, you gotta think like the, you know, the, the building owners rather than IT, and I think that was a journey that we have taken, and I think that's where we are today with, you know,
with,
Wayne Kim: with, uh, Quadrant.
James Dice: So Thano, when did you start down this path and, and why, and can you talk about what the goals were at the beginning of this?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. We started back in. The latter part of 2018 planning out what this entire transformation was going to look like and what we were hoping for, for it to yield in the years to come.
One of the major things that we realized as we looked at our portfolio is that. Everything existed in silos. Systems, softwares, uh, infrastructure, it all did a great job, in some cases good, in some cases frankly bad, job of doing the job that it was meant to do in a silo, and that wasn't going to enable us to realize the outcomes that not [00:15:00] only have we realized today, but what we're looking to realize in the future.
So, when we thought about it, and when I use the, this bad real estate analogy, and I, I wrote it in an article in, for RealCom a few years ago, when we think about connectivity, we think about it as the foundation of our digital transformation strategy. You can't build a building without a foundation. That is meant to last the test of time, hundreds of years, and in the same fashion, you can't build a digital strategy without a solid concrete and rebar foundation of connectivity.
So that's why we started. We, we looked at it as an, as an essential piece. Uh, to moving Quadril strategy forward to drive on the outcomes of operational cost reduction to drive on the outcomes of risk reduction, especially around cyber security, uh, to reduce energy use and carbon footprint to enhance operational efficiency [00:16:00] to improve experiences and really differentiate our assets from our competitive set.
It sounds funny to say that connectivity and. Uh, building network infrastructure and an IOT network and, and Wi Fi and other connectivity platforms. are critical to that overall strategy, but you can't get anywhere without it.
James Dice: Totally. And you came on the show last year with KODE Labs and we talked about the, the software platform that you were trying to enable.
And it seems like if I can just sort of like summarize the two episodes here, um, In our conversations about these projects, you're, you started here and realized that you wanted to get there. You wanted to do FDD, you wanted to do supervisory control for energy savings. You wanted to do more, right? You wanted to do a bunch of stuff and you realized, okay, this is the beginning, the infrastructure to enable that is the network layer.
Thano Lambrinos: Absolutely. That it was incredibly clear early on that. While [00:17:00] possible to band aid and slap a number of things together to try our best to get the data out of these systems, it wasn't going to be conducive to long term scale. As we started to, uh, as buildings evolved and as we retrofitted systems, as we added systems, as we added IoT devices, As we looked at the proliferation of technology in real estate, it became very clear that we needed a strong foundation in order to, uh, realize this.
Idea of the single pane of glass that everybody talks about so flippantly. Uh, but what I would like to think we're actually, we have actually implemented. And, you know, one example I'll give you is we. Deployed very early on, uh, we're working on an asset in Chicago with a partner, uh, and Dorix was our partner on that asset as well from an infrastructure [00:18:00] standpoint, deployed the network, the IOT network, and the cellular DAS infrastructure, and we deployed some technologies that were very nascent.
And frankly, uh, didn't yield the results that we wanted to yield. Um, I will bring up KODE because they are one of our partners and we've have spoken to them here before. Because of the infrastructure that we had deployed in that building and because of the, the general capabilities and quality of the KODE platform, but certainly because of the infrastructure, we were able to stand up that smart building platform in the course of a couple of weeks.
And entirely remotely because the connectivity infrastructure was there. All of the systems throughout the building were available on that infrastructure. Uh, and it was very easy and, and safe to provide remote access with the cyber security controls and the vendor access infrastructure that we put into place.
So, so to that end, you know, [00:19:00] we, we realized it very early on that while possible, it, it was going to be probably, Uh, less, extremely less cost effective in the longterm to deploy traditionally and certainly wouldn't allow us the ability to scale and, uh, and, and, and realize the outcomes the way that we have thus far.
James Dice: So Wayne, I saw your chuckle there when he, when he brought up the project related to Chicago with KODE Labs, can you talk about how, you know, It sounds like you guys started out as software providers and that now are just doing the network layer. Now you're partnering with the software application providers.
Can you talk about that partnership and how important it's for you guys to work with them and, and vice
versa?
Wayne Kim: Uh, you, you know what, you know, it's absolutely, absolutely the, the most important thing because at the what KODE Labs is that they need the data and we are the collector of that data. And what we are doing is that whenever they, they come to us and say, Hey, we're, we're deploying.
You know, ABC buildings and within a [00:20:00] day or two, they have a connectivity, they have access to data, they have access to normal data, and they'll start working on it. Like it's, it's, it's crazy in terms of how scale that you could actually deploy the, the intelligent building platform. You could actually deploy multiple sites, three, four buildings at a time, where it used to take eight months, ten months, twelve months, and a year and a half to do any one building.
You're talking about the scale is beyond, you know, it's imaginary, you can imagine. So I think from that perspective, I think it's, it's amazing. Absolutely genius in terms of how the partnership between us, you know, the KODE Labs cannot be KODE Labs without us. And we cannot be, you know, like joining together basically is delivering the vision of Quadreal.
I think that's how I want to put it. [00:21:00] And we are working very closely with the KODE Labs and the team. And we, each of us knows the value of the both companies. And we are, we're basically saying, here's the KODE Labs, they're amazing. And, and KODE Labs is saying the thing you cannot do without the network. So, so I think those are the collaboration work that we're doing together.
James Dice: Awesome. Yeah, that's great. Um, Dano, can you talk about the, the state of your networks and why that was a problem other than enabling software platforms, like we're talking about? Why was this a problem the way the networks were before? Uh, the way that people describe it to me is like, it's a hodgepodge of unmanaged spaghetti wires going everywhere.
Can you talk about why that was the problem the way it was and specifically around cybersecurity?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. Hodgepodge. And spaghetti were two of the words that I was actually going to use. So you took them out of my head. A cluster, if you will, without the latter part of that phrase, um, is, is kind of the state that things were in.
So it [00:22:00] presents issues on a few different fronts. As you mentioned, the spaghetti side of it is an infrastructure piece. We had. Infrastructure throughout our buildings. We had no visibility into where it was physically, where it was, what it was doing, if it was active or decommissioned. So created a management and operational issues with respect to simply managing the risers or managing the mechanical and electrical rooms and managing where all this infrastructure resided, understanding if it was active or not active, um, we are very, very aggressively trying to clean up spaces.
Uh, and are trying to ensure that anything that goes into our buildings is well documented, is constantly, uh, updated with changes so that we understand what's active and what's inactive, so that we can, uh, properly manage our spaces from a physical standpoint. The other point that you touched on, Uh, is absolutely appropriate as well from a cyber security perspective.
We [00:23:00] had a number of different networks with unmanaged internet connections. Some we were paying for, some we weren't paying for through vendors. Uh, connections lit up all over the place that we had zero visibility into, which just created openings for bad actors to wreak whatever havoc they chose to wreak.
Thankfully, we were not, and real estate generally speaking hasn't been a Target, but they're opportunistic folks, right? And what we've learned, uh, through my participation in the real estate cyber consortium to give that group a little bit of a plug, um, is that because of the opportunistic nature of bad actors.
Sometimes they stumble into buildings, and there are now case studies of hackers coming into buildings and taking down elevators, and taking down HVAC systems, and taking down lighting systems. And because of that unmanaged nature of a lot of these assets, those buildings were left [00:24:00] beyond repair for several weeks at a time.
So, from a cyber standpoint, it was a huge risk, and one of the things that Implementing this infrastructure allowed us to do was gain that visibility where we had none before. So beyond those other outcomes, the, the last piece that I'll say on the visibility front. Is genuinely having visibility into the devices that are connected to that infrastructure.
And as we evolve, and I'll be frank and transparent here. Uh, we have a bunch of work to still do in that space, uh, but we are working towards being able to understand every single device, what it is, what it's connected to. We have a lot of this information already. But our goal is to amalgamate it into a single place where my team in concert and partnership with various IT folks that are interested can effectively manage the cybersecurity program and can effectively run asset management on.
Uh, on our infrastructure elements throughout the [00:25:00] buildings.
James Dice: You talked earlier about how you have your, you know, vendor team, you know, you have Belden on the cabling, et cetera, et cetera, Andorix helping you with what we're about to talk about. Um, can you talk about that buying process? Like what were the options that you were considering?
Why did you choose this, um, you know, these preferred hardware providers and then Andorix as a service provider? Can you talk about that piece?
Thano Lambrinos: So when we started looking at... The connectivity strategy and the fact that it would enable everything to come. We were very methodical and stepped in our approach.
I also didn't want to do something everybody had already done that wasn't going to scale because in my past life, I had deployed a number of. Traditional network infrastructures, active network infrastructures with all of the big names and logos on the equipment that you would expect that are very, very, uh, [00:26:00] expensive.
And as Wayne said earlier, life cycle very quickly, which adds a significant spend to not only the capital budget of an asset, but also the ongoing operational budget. So we took a step back and looked at other technologies and looked at things differently. We evaluated all of the traditional active network vendors.
We evaluated a series of manufacturers on the passive optical network side. And our first major decision gate was, were we going to go traditional or were we going to Uh, try our hand at passive optical networks, which hadn't, or PON, which hadn't been deployed at scale across buildings. There had been smatterings of it here and there, uh, but never at scale.
Everybody looked at me like I was crazy when I thought to do it in the first place, but the value proposition, the advancements in the technology. And the cost of it was too tempting to not at least pilot in a single building. Uh, so when we evaluated all of the [00:27:00] manufacturers, we landed on Dawson because of their, uh, cost and technology profile, uh, there was a number of, uh, leveling elements that went into the evaluation of all of these different manufacturers.
Um, and when we looked at Dawson's preferred partners. Uh, and Oryx was their preferred partner in Canada, so we aligned with them, uh, to deploy our first pilot building, uh, that was 745 Thurlow in Vancouver. So, in summation, it was, it was very stepped, and we went through each of the different elements, rather than looking at it, uh, holistically and make a, make a single buying purchase, we dove deep into, What type of infrastructure do we want to deploy?
Who are the manufacturers in that space? Let's do our own independent evaluation of the manufacturers. Identify a manufacturer. Who are the service providers that are working for that manufacturer? And then identify the one that best works for us. And that's how we got to where we're at [00:28:00] today.
James Dice: Brilliant.
Okay. Just take us through the rest of the deployment phases then. So that was like, um, category evaluation, vendor selection, piloting in one building, you said. Where did you go from there for people to kind of think about the roadmap here?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. So after the successful pilot in the first building, Um, we were actually doing a couple of things in parallel.
Uh, we wanted to prove out the use cases, uh, or the deployment use cases in an existing building, which is why 745 Thurlow in Vancouver was selected. At the same time, we had construction projects in flight that I didn't want to miss. So we were designing and getting into early stages of deployment of the infrastructure, uh, at major.
Uh, developments like the Vancouver post office now known as the post, which is Amazon's, uh, major AWS is major headquarters in Canada, in Vancouver. And so as we looked at, I'll talk about our existing infrastructure. As we looked at the pilot and the [00:29:00] success of the pilot and those lessons learned, uh, we started, uh, looking at the entire portfolio and breaking it out into manageable.
Uh, chunks throughout the various different regions. Um, we went through, you know, again, a very stepped and pragmatic process to, uh, to assess the buildings, to assess their current state, uh, to work through the various, uh, infrastructure designs, both network, uh, and cabling. Uh, and then grouped them appropriately across the platform, which, as I mentioned, we were doing during COVID, which was very interesting to do, but still managed to deliver a significant portion in that time, uh, and then, and then worked with, uh, our, our preferred Uh, uh, networking partners, uh, our managed services partners with Andorix, our infrastructure partners, the manufacturers.
I mentioned Belden. I forgot to mention them during the buying process, but they have a significant market share in North America. We looked at those technologies as well as we were evaluating, uh, and landed on them. And then [00:30:00] we, we actually tendered, uh, a number of the installation. Uh, contractors across the country to deploy the physical infrastructure, uh, to deploy, uh, the, the racking infrastructure, which Handorix then would go and, uh, and install their networking equipment into and, and make final, uh, connections.
So, so yeah, so, so we went through this big approach of looking at the, uh, the condition of the portfolio, uh, asset by asset, because the unfortunate reality is everyone's a little bit different. Identifying a design that was appropriate and a game plan that was appropriate. Um, and then, uh, and then tendering.
Now, when we start looking at actual rollout and implementation, that's where things get a little spicy and very interesting. Uh, because as you can imagine, because of this nuance, um, and because of the fact that every infrastructure was managed by somebody different, some vendor, um, or in some cases nobody, uh, there was a lot of work that had to go into connecting with various different vendors, working with all.
Uh, [00:31:00] the HVAC controls contractors, working with the lighting controls contractors, working with the elevator contractors, the energy metering, uh, providers, etc., etc., going down the list, uh, and creating a, a very, very methodical method of procedure when it came to cutting over. Which is one of the challenges that I, I'll talk about in a bit, but, uh, managing that cutover process in an existing building is a big one, especially around mission critical systems in an asset.
So hopefully that gives you and your listeners a sense of, of the approach that we went through.
James Dice: Yeah, totally. And just before we move on, um, real quick, cutting over is basically they were, they were managing their own network and now you're putting their devices onto the, the converged network. Is that what you're saying?
Thano Lambrinos: Absolutely. So cutting over essentially means exactly as it sounds, we're cutting a system over from one infrastructure to another, uh, that introduced a number of challenges, both physical. You know, can we physically remove this cable and plug it [00:32:00] in somewhere else? And from, uh, a network and management standpoint as well, uh, aligning with the current managers or lack thereof, uh, to make sure that when we fired these, this new network up, all the screens on the other end came on and people could manage the building as normal.
Wayne Kim: Yeah, and James, I think one of the, one of the, and Thano, uh, could, you know, uh, probably, you know, support this thing is that... One of the key things of success is that you need to pick the right partner who is going to be standing behind, going through the, from the design to deployment to the, the execution and, and, and, and commissioning, and then cut over.
And I think that's, that's really, really important. Otherwise. You, you are going to have a problem. And, and, and on top of that is that, you know, not only just doing those kinds of work, it is the beyond that is that, okay, I am responsible for next five years. This [00:33:00] network is going to be up and running. And I think that that's the type of commitment you need as a part of the partnership for Quadrio to be able to commit to the, the, this kind of a massive.
Uh, you know, the transformation.
James Dice: And, and this is a good place to talk about this. Um, we, we've written a lot of content. We've done a buyer guide around this, this, this sort of network layer here. And we've sort of done a deep dive around what it, what's required as far as a managed services provider. We call them network managers or network management services.
So Wayne, can you talk about like what goes into that? What is your scope of work here? What are all the things that you're doing on a monthly, annual basis to, to keep the network up and running? Yeah.
Wayne Kim: So, so I think what we, what we do and, and what we are, we, we have consistently been doing is that we just don't do manage of the network.
What we do is that we go into the portfolio, like the quadril and others that we are, we are involved in right now is that we go from the design. We go right from the, [00:34:00] the, the site survey to the design. Once the design is done, then we create a bill of materials to the, all of the requirements that it needs to be.
And then we go through the actual, how are we going to be able to deploy it and commission it based on the building, whether it's a brand new building or, or you're, you want to call it the existing platforms, and then we deploy it and we create a, uh, you know, the. The requirements, uh, documents, which will be given to the, the, the electrical contractors, whoever contractor who's going to be running those fibers in the buildings and making sure that they're actually deploying the devices as we have specified.
And so that we are going from end to end to make sure that everything is done. And then we actually do the, all of the connections and to test all the network. And then we go through the commissioning of that saying, okay, we're, we're, we're done. And then now we start connecting. Integrating into the building systems, whether it's, you know, BAS systems, [00:35:00] whether it's security, elevators, you know, and, and then on top of that, we're not only providing the connecting the building automation systems, we're connecting all of the IoT devices, we're connecting Wi Fi, you know, building Wi Fi, you know, the common area Wi Fi systems.
We're also connecting the, uh, All of the sensors that are connecting to it as well. So we're doing complete management. Otherwise. It's going to fall apart and then once that has been running and then on top of that, we are doing that, you know, the wireless systems as well as a part of the, the, you know, the part of the back converse network that we are delivering.
Once that is done, we actually start saying, okay, day two, we're managing it from today. It's cable live. And then we make sure that operates 24 seven. We have a, uh, not basically on call. We have a 24 seven operation monitoring all of the building systems. Which usually didn't happen before, like it's, it's a hodgepodge of things that you talked [00:36:00] about.
Who, who knows what goes down. We make sure that it's up and running and we have a ticketing system notification to make sure. And if it's a critical systems, we have a, a people on the street that will be able to go to the site and, and, and do what needs to be done as well. So what we, what we're talking about, we look at building as a mission critical systems within the IT systems.
And that's how we operate. To make sure that the quadri, when they're looking at from their building commercial buildings, that's a 24 7 with two 3000 people working, and you cannot go down. And I think that's what, you know, what is important to be able to recognize, to be able to know that if you are coming into this journey of integration, you gotta go all the way to the end.
Otherwise, you know, the, the quadri of the world or the major prop portfolio, property owners will not be able to trust. And, and, and, and be able to go into that journey.
James Dice: Okay, great. I want to circle back on a couple of things that we talked [00:37:00] about so far technically here. Um, one is passive optical networking.
Can we, can we talk about the differences between that and active networks and just talk about, Wayne, maybe, maybe you start, um, on the technical side of this. We don't want to get too deep into the weeds of physics and, you know, passing signals along a glass, uh, glass, uh, cable, but, but just talk about if I'm a buyer.
Thank you. What do I need to know about why would I go passive optical versus active?
Wayne Kim: Yeah. So, so one of, one of the key thing is that passive optical network is just what it says, passive. It's not an active system. What it is, is that you have a one single central system, you know, head end that basically have all of the intelligence and then it's, it's right on the fiber.
And, and, and basically fiber is a light that goes through, and it will go a long way. I'm talking about a long way, you know, 5, 10 kilometers. And in, in doing it, what you will be able to do is that you have what we call the splitter. [00:38:00] Basically it splits the light into, you know, as it goes, splitter with the, with the optics, it will split up to, you know, 2 to 1, 4 to 1, 16 to 1, 32 to 1, 64 to 1.
So it splits. It splits. So what it does, as they are traveling to that destination, there's no power required. So that is why the passive optical network is so inherently used on the fiber to the home. Because when you go under the ground, there's no power. So, in order to be able to deliver that and, and be able to do these things are extremely important on the passive output network technology.
What it does within the building is that if you want, the future is that you need to, you need to be able to deliver the fiber right to the edge to create the, the, the best, what we call the, the secure, uh, the fastest network that is possible. So what, [00:39:00] uh, uh, compared to traditionally, you know, the active network, you have a, you know, core switch.
With the distribution switch, edge switches, and so on. And every one of those, you need a power core to be able to do that. And what this does, it eliminates all of that, which means that basically, you know, your power usage within the building becomes really low. And all of these traditional Ethernet, you know, the switches, are using the Cat5, Cat6 type of cable, which is massive amount as you think about it.
And it creates, uh, the heat and, and, and, you know, the, the, the space constraint that is needed within, within the building risers, there's issue with those things. And by bringing the fiber right to the edge and converting that into the what we call ONT, which is basically converting the light to electrical and then plug it at the edge, the devices.
And, and that really differentiates, as I said, number one in terms of the cost of replacement. What we call, we're talking about [00:40:00] the life cycle of the product, right? It becomes much, much less because there's no moving parts. And all of the, the, the, the splitters and, and, and, and the cross connect and so on.
They're all passive devices, which will last for 20 years. Only thing that you have to do is refresh is maybe the, you know. The line cards that is supporting today 1GB to 10GB and so on and so forth. So this is really a huge advantage for building like this into the cost effective way of deploying a network.
Thano Lambrinos: So when we looked at the difference between active and passive, as Wayne described, there were a few things. Cost, obviously one of them. As mentioned off the top, because of the infrastructure requirements being significantly less, because we can take a single fiber and split it. Up to 64 ways, our standard right now is 4 to 8 at max.
And take it as far as we can to the edge, the [00:41:00] requirement for structured cabling, uh, or copper cabling, your Cat6, Cat6As, moved to being only required for the last mile. So, that allowed us to, uh, deploy networks over large buildings with very minimal cabling infrastructure. Uh, leveraging the splitter technology allowed us to take fiber as far as we could.
Uh, without having switching all over the place. Um, and the, as Wayne described, the opportunity to simply replace minor components saved us enormous amounts of money on lifecycle refresh, because as you can imagine, when you're looking at a traditional network having to replace basically everything, you're paying for the system over and over again every four to seven years, if you're lucky, but probably realistically five.
Uh, five or six. So the cost advantages, the, the, the, the cost savings advantages, the operational advantages, the space savings advantages, especially when dealing in existing [00:42:00] buildings with constrained spaces, um, the energy usage advantages made it very clear that this was the technology and the solution to go with.
James Dice: And for the mechanical engineers listening that don't know anything about IT, um, like the one asking this question, uh, why do these devices and pieces of hardware need to be replaced every five years, uh, in the traditional system?
Thano Lambrinos: Well, when you talk about an active piece of equipment, it is just that. It is active.
There are moving parts and pieces. And there's power to these devices, so they heat up, and over time, not only do they fail, but just like any other piece of technology, they become unsupported. Uh, when we look at fiber, fiber is glass. And, uh, the signals move across the glass at the speed of light. And the last thing, the last time I checked, there's really nothing faster than the speed of light.
With maybe the exception of James and I running to the bar after these conferences are over. Um, [00:43:00] but that aside, uh, it's, it's an infrastructure that stands the test of time. The splitting devices, as Wayne mentioned, are completely passive, so they're unpowered. They can last 25, 30 years. Uh, the only thing that would make them fail is decay, or somebody hitting them with a hammer, or cutting the fiber with a knife.
Um, and the technology being central, uh, primarily with powered devices at the edge, require the, uh, the number of devices that you need to refresh, uh, very... Uh, in significant in comparison to an active network.
James Dice: Okay, before we get into the lessons learned, I want to, I want to get the challenges from you guys because we've been talking about a lot of benefits here, but I just want to, we published a deployment profile sort of summarizing this on our website.
People can go to buyers, um, buyers hub on our website and go to deployment profile. Um, the results from this, the, the, the numbers that, uh, that we published, um, that we got from Andorix here are pretty, I want to just want to read them because they're pretty [00:44:00] compelling. Energy savings of 70%. 65 percent space savings, 50 to 70 percent lower service costs.
So that would be like, if someone else like the, you know, the controls vendor is managing the network for the building automation system, you're, you're getting rid of that. Cost and centralizing it, right. And then, um, 65 percent cost savings. Uh, we've been talking about all the ways this, in which this saves cost.
Pretty, pretty compelling results in terms of the financial side of this as well.
Thano Lambrinos: Absolutely. And, and it was one of the major drivers in, in this decision making process. And the reality is the traditional big logos and the named vendors in the networking space. I've just had the industry convinced that they're the only solution, which is why everybody looked at us when we were deploying this infrastructure.
And we're very, very skeptical that it would work. As Wayne shared [00:45:00] earlier, this technology has been in place. Used by the telecommunications, uh, industries for, for, for many years, 30 plus years, 30 plus years delivering fiber to the home. Now there were some limitations in, in certain areas with the technology early on that made it difficult to deploy in these types of environments.
But as technology goes, there's been significant advancements and it enabled us to do so. So, you know, when we looked at the numbers, they almost seemed. Uh, unrealistic, but they were certainly real. And, uh, I have a number of direct comparison case studies that we've put together, uh, that show just how real they are.
James Dice: Totally. All right. Let's get into the challenges. Thano, I know that there were a few here that you want to sort of bring up. Uh, let's pretend we're thinking about educating a buyer that hasn't done this yet, and you're basically like, here are the roadblocks that we hit that we don't want you to hit. Uh, what were the, what were the challenges?
And we can talk about the resolution to each of them as well.
Thano Lambrinos: For sure. I would say [00:46:00] probably the first one on the top of the list as you're looking at retrofitting. And I'll talk a little bit about new construction as well. Uh, but let's focus on retrofitting to start. System discovery prior to cutting over the existing infrastructure to your new infrastructure was a major challenge.
Um, it was a challenge for a number of reasons. It was a challenge because we didn't know what we didn't know. It was a challenge because of relationship issues, or maybe not issues, but lack of understanding from our vendors into what we were actually looking for. Because they're not network specialists.
In a lot of cases, as you joke, James, you've got a mechanical background. That doesn't mean you know how a network works. You just know that you need it there to run your system. So a lot of the things that we were asking may not have been appropriately responded to and And and to be frank we probably could have done a bit of a deeper dive into some of these sites before we started.
So that was And, and [00:47:00] that manifests in starting to switch over and everybody going, Uh oh, why isn't it coming back on? Or we turned something off and we thought it was only going to turn this off. Why did it turn a bunch of other stuff off? Or when we turned it back on, not everything came back on. So, so there was a lot of pre work.
There's a ton of pre work that you need to do. You have to go really through the buildings with a fine tooth comb, uh, to understand everything physically where it is, how it's connected. Uh, what it's serving so that you can appropriately cut over, that's your mitigation. Uh, one of the things that you can do that we, that even despite these issues that I think we did very well, uh, was risk mitigation with respect to a back out plan.
Um, we had to use it several times, if I'm honest. We'd cut over and things wouldn't work and we'd have to revert back to its existing state and get it up and running again. Uh, pack up at 5am, go home, sleep during the day. And then try again at midnight the next [00:48:00] night, uh, start over again. So, so yeah, it's, uh, it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but when done it's the, as we've been talking about, the value is, is pretty great.
Wayne Kim: I know I wanted to add one more is that, you know, we, we, we at Andorex and lower DTGS, you know, who actually had a, you know, a password for network infrastructure. They have not deployed in this mass scale, 20 million square foot, you know, 40 buildings. And you are going to encounter a lot of different things.
And so it was a vendor who actually learned a lot. Can you imagine that? Like they've, they've, they had a, uh, you know, they're deploying it, this technology for the football field, like football stadiums and, and, you know, the hotels. So, but in the commercial building, you're completely different. So, to be able to do this thing day in and day out, and I don't think they really understood it as well, until we actually had to put them in and says, [00:49:00] look, you are going to do a cuttable with us every single building, every single night.
And you have to have that kind of what we call the, the, the, you know, the, the, the relationship to be able to bring this thing together. And this is a major lesson, I don't care who it is, unless you do that kind of commitment from the vendor. And us and from the, the, the, you know, you know, quadro, it's not going to work.
So I think that was the major six criteria that we went through together. Right.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah. I'll add to that a little bit, James, you know, there was a big learning curve for the manufacturer, uh, that actually required their engineers, uh, to come in and step in, in a few situations and create. Uh, custom updates and firmware updates to their equipment so that they could handle whatever the, uh, device or system that we were connecting to, uh, so that we wouldn't have issues.
So, you know, hopefully those who select, whether it's our [00:50:00] vendors or other vendors that are listening to this, uh, hopefully they've learned from a lot of the stuff that we've done. Cause I will say with some confidence that we were the first to deploy this technology at scales, at scale in the built environment.
Um, that, that a lot of those issues are mitigated, but to Wayne's point, it was critical to have them on the phone with us as we were doing cutovers, saying, okay, this works, next device, this doesn't work, what are you seeing on your end, Andorix, what are you seeing on your end, uh, uh, Dawson's Zone, DZS, the manufacturer, and let's see if we can fix this in real time, or if we have to back out and do something, uh, engineer something custom to make it work.
So, Uh, we were certainly out in the, you know, in the middle of the Amazon with machetes blazing a trail. Um, but now we've carved through it and it's been rinse and repeat.
James Dice: And it sounds like a major piece of this that everyone can do, no matter whether they're using this infrastructure or a different one, is go out in your buildings and figure out what devices you have, what networks you have, and with [00:51:00] those networks.
What are the ways in which it's set up? What are the devices you have that are running the networks themselves and just do an assessment, right? Um, and the way that we've sort of framed this when we're advising buyers and advising building owners is it starts with your strategy. We talked about at the beginning of this.
What are you trying to accomplish? But then what you're trying to accomplish depends on your network in some way, shape or form, like we've been talking about. And so you need to figure out what are all those things. And that requires some sort of assessment to go out and figure out what's in your buildings, um, as a, as a first step that needs to happen at some point.
Thano Lambrinos: And sometimes these assessments are cut and dry. Um, you know, our folks and Wayne's teams. were literally crawling under tables and into closets and finding stuff all over the place that had been installed. And you're like, why is this even here? Just because there was space available and a plug in a lot of cases.
So just, just throw it in that room, put it in the janitor's closet. It doesn't matter. There was stuff all over the place. [00:52:00] So these assessments can get pretty hairy sometimes. And you have to be ready for that as, as you start going through this, uh, through this process.
Wayne Kim: One other, one other comment that James, I would like to say is that Quadrio is not a network company.
And, and, and what happened is that you go into the communication closet and nothing is labored. How do you know how to connect them to make sure that you're not connect, disconnecting this building from that building when you're doing a campus of 2, 2. 4 million square foot downtown building? And it's been there for like 20 years.
And, and just to try to trace that, to make sure where they all go, to me, that is the, the expertise that is needed to make sure you don't bring the whole building down. And I think that's really the, the, the type of, uh, you know, the, the, because of who we were, we were a technology company, we're a networking company for 20 [00:53:00] years.
We're able to go in, not as a, you know, the building connectivity company. It's, it's the background in our engineering that allow us to be able to go in and labor every one of those things. And then when we did a cutover, it worked. So, so those are the kind of what we call the, the, the lessons learned, especially.
For, uh, you know, it's not a fainted heart to be able to do that because you're not going to a brand new building. These are buildings that has been built for, you know, 30, years and, and been there forever, so.
James Dice: Okay, what's our other, uh, other challenges that, that are on your list, Thano?
Thano Lambrinos: We talked a little bit about retrofit.
Let's talk about new construction. A completely different set of challenges. You're not dealing with existing infrastructure. You're not dealing with... Legacy vendors, everything's brand new. However, uh, sometimes more difficult than existing buildings. And I'll explain why you've got a traditional [00:54:00] construct that is deployed through most projects where contractors are responsible for manufacturers within.
Their respective divisions, for those not familiar with master format, you can look it up on Google, and when I say things like Division 27 Communications and 26 Electrical and 23 Mechanical and 28 Security, that'll start to make sense. But typically these systems were, or these divisions were delivered in silos.
When we come in and start... Asking them all to connect to a single infrastructure, despite the fact that we place it in division 27, it still requires a lot of coordination to ensure that all of the vendors are not disconnected. Again, very traditionally, standing up their own infrastructure to stand up their system so that they can check the box, say that they're done, commission their system, get paid, and get out, which is what they want to do.
So, challenge on new [00:55:00] construction is coordination. Um, and we struggled with it early. Um, what it turned into was us writing our own divisional specifications and ensuring that there was cross collaboration between all of those, uh, all of those trade divisions and Division 27 and frankly, Division 25 as well as we looked at the integration layer of this entire strategy so that we could implement.
And the key is The key to success and the key to overcoming these challenges is documentation, is appropriate design and specification, um, is ensuring that when procuring Uh, because, just because you specified a certain way doesn't mean they're going to try to sell it to you in the same way that you specified it is ensuring that what is being sold, uh, is aligned with your specifications.
And then it still doesn't stop there. You still need to check as they submit shop drawings and what [00:56:00] they're actually going to install on site and make sure that there's an audit trail that goes back to your initial design. And from there, you're still not done because you need a management. Appropriate level of management oversight from the owner and from, you know, you talk a lot about master systems integrators.
There see, there needs to also be an element of that that's the, the network master system net integrator that comes in and brings all these folks together. And there is early and often engagement between all these parties, uh, that are meant to stand up systems in a new construction environment. So that was a huge challenge for us figuring that out.
The network is always the scapegoat. People look at the network and say, Oh, my system doesn't work because of that. I can't commission because of the network. Uh, the network's not working. Uh, that's why my stuff doesn't work. And 95 percent of the time, it's not true. Most of the time it's because things haven't been configured appropriately.
They haven't been installed appropriately. They didn't follow our specifications or our requirements. And [00:57:00] as we transform and as these mechanical contractors and these electrical contractors and these, uh, metering and AV contractors start to understand this. It'll make it easier, but right now they still think very traditionally.
So as an owner, developer, operator, we need to bring folks in like Andorix and also employ our own expertise on our side to ensure that this stuff gets done properly. And only since we've done that, have we seen it be successful. And we've managed to make them all successes, but some of the earlier ones were very, very painful.
James Dice: And I think sometimes this industry looks at Division 25 as like the, the magic wand that makes everything integrate. And it sounds like what you're describing is, yes, for a portion of the stack, but then there still needs to be the integration of these concepts into each individual specification, uh, and, and for the rest of the contractors, the rest of the stakeholders.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, [00:58:00] absolutely true. I think that one of the things that we have now, I believe, done very well As we've written these specifications and kind of brought them in house and are managing them ourselves is ensuring that each of them appropriately points to points either back to division 27 from a physical connectivity integration standpoint and points back to division 25 for call it a software layer system integration.
perspective and both of them are equally as critical because you can't have 25 without 27 and If you just have 27 you just have a bunch of connected stuff that you're not doing anything with so so they're both They're both very necessary in the realization of All the outcomes that I spoke of off the top.
Okay.
James Dice: I think that's a great place to end off you guys. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Any last words for people that we didn't cover?
Thano Lambrinos: So if I can just offer my parting words, uh, if I could just offer my parting words, I would say as difficult as this [00:59:00] sounds, you have to do it. So get started somewhere, start putting your plans together.
Take a very stepped and pragmatic approach to transforming your existing assets and don't build new buildings without considering this infrastructure and the deployment of this infrastructure because you're going to kick yourself later as much as contractors, general contractors, manufacturers continue to throw up, um, words like risk and schedule risk and cost risk.
You have to fight through that in order to get what you want and to realize the outcomes you want on the other end. So if you haven't started, start, and if you have started and smacked your head against the wall, like we have several times, just keep smacking until you go through and, uh, and there's something better on the other side.
Wayne Kim: Yeah, from, from Andorex perspective, uh, James, I think the, the success is really the partnership between the, the, the master system integrator. [01:00:00] That is responsible for end to end. I'm talking about not just portion of it. There are people who just deploy infrastructure and then walk away. It, that, that will be the, the, the probably a hundred percent of failure that you're going to be regretting.
So you need a, find a great partner who is going to be able to do this thing from design all the way through and day two. And responsible for managing this as part of their life cycle. And which means that without that, I think the, they're going to go through a really a tough time. So, you know, find the portfolio type of, you know, the event customer like the Quadril and find a partner, not only Andorex, but anybody who has a similar vision.
To be able to partner it and, and be able to deliver it. I, I think you're gonna have a great success.
James Dice: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your lessons learned, both of you, uh, and we'll talk to you soon.[01:01:00]
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"Conductivity is the foundation for everything. We can’t realize high value outcomes without having all of our devices communicate data through a single pipe that we can then normalize, that we can then action, which we can then overlay AI and machine learning on to realize these outcomes. ”
—Thano Lambrinos
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Episode 159 is a conversation with Thano Lambrinos from Quadreal and Wayne Kim from Andorix.
Episode 159 features Thano Lambrinos from Quadreal and Wayne Kim from Andorix and is our 7th episode in the Case Study series looking at real-life, large-scale deployments of smart building technologies. These are not marketing fluff stories, these are lessons from leaders that others can put into use in their smart buildings programs. This conversation explores the partnership between Quadreal and Andorix and how the implementation of a new network has made an impact on Quadreal. Enjoy!
You can find Thano and Wayne on LinkedIn.
Overview (1:32)
Introduction to Thano Lambrinos (2:18)
Who’s on the vendor team (5:40)
Results we’ve seen (7:18)
Introduction to Wayne Kim (8:50)
Goals for this project (14:10)
The partnership (19:30)
Problems with the old network (21:40)
The buying process (25:17)
Deployment phases (28:07)
Keeping the network up and running (33:30)
Passive optical networking (37:10)
Challenges (45:45)
Closing remarks (58:45)
Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tiger—licensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S509585-16073.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
Thano Lambrinos: Connectivity is the foundation for everything that we build on top of it. We can't realize high value outcomes, whether we're trying to maximize operational efficiency, lower our cost, reduce carbon footprint, reduce risk, and improve our cybersecurity posture without having all of our devices. in the building, regardless of system, communicate data through a single pipe that we can then normalize, that we can then action, which we can then overlay AI and machine learning on to realize these outcomes.
So it's a critical Critical piece in QuadReel's overall strategy and hence was the first thing that I really tackled when I got to the firm.
James Dice: Hey friends, if you like the Nexus podcast, the best way to continue the learning is to join our community. There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus Pro Membership.
It's our global community of smart billing professionals. We have monthly events, [00:01:00] paywall deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month. Second, you can upgrade from the ProMembership to our Courses offering. It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses taught by world leading experts on each topic under the smart buildings umbrella.
Third and finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions. The links are below in the show notes. And now let's go on to the podcast.
Welcome to the Nexus podcast. This is the latest episode in our series, diving into case studies. So we're talking real life, large scale deployments of smart building technologies. I think as Stano once said to me, um, I talk about actually doing stuff rather than talking about doing stuff. Um, so I'll emphasize real life because we're not here to create a marketing fluff story.
We're here to share lessons from these leaders that others can put to use in their smart buildings program. So today we have a story [00:02:00] coming from Quad Real Property Group. Um, they're a global real estate company headquartered in Vancouver. Um, with assets all over the, of Canada, the US, UK, Europe, and Asia Pacific.
So Thano, welcome back to the show. Um, we have Thano Lembrinos here, senior vice president, digital buildings and experiences and innovation, big title at QuadReal. Uh, can you talk a little bit more about yourself, uh, and your background?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and thank you for having me again. I always enjoy being on your podcasts and helping advance.
The community and the deployment of technology throughout real estate. Uh, yeah, my title is very long. I wanted something that would fit on two sides of a business card, uh, rather than just one. Um, and, and it was the shortest thing I could come up with for everything that, that, uh, that we do here in our group here at QuadRail, a little bit of background on myself, I've been at QuadRail now for the better part of five years.
A little over five years now. Uh, before that I was in [00:03:00] construction, worked for a large general contractor and then before that in the sub trades. So that upbringing and the adjacencies to technology and the general pragmatic approach that's beaten into you when you learn how to build something from the ground up has really served itself.
Well in me and in the way that we've put the team together in order to implement tech and digitally transform the portfolio in that we've taken a very pragmatic and practical approach to everything that we do. And as you said, uh, actually do stuff and not just talk about doing stuff. So for those who aren't familiar with me and the group.
Uh, that I manage and I'm lucky enough to run here at Quadriel. We're responsible for everything from technology infrastructure in the building. That includes connectivity, which we'll dive into quite a bit today. Um, the systems that connect. Uh, to that infrastructure, whether they be, uh, controls, mechanical controls, lighting, parking, energy [00:04:00] metering, elevators, audio visual systems, you name it, uh, and the integration of those systems to realize a number of outcomes, operational outcomes and use cases, and also the customer platforms.
Uh, recently, my group has also expanded into mechanical and electrical infrastructure deployment, such that we now have a thread. From design through to procurement into construction and commissioning, um, all the way through so that we can realize the outcomes that we're driving for, because we, as we've gone through this journey, have learned that, uh, deploying technology in the built environment isn't possible unless you have the right systems in place and.
Uh, that system design isn't, uh, conducive to the success of the technology unless you have the right infrastructure systems in place. So now we've kind of incorporated all of that in our group to deploy across all of our new developments as well as across all of our existing assets in Canada and are expanding into the U.
S. and the U. [00:05:00] K. and Asia Pacific as you mentioned.
James Dice: Yeah, thanks for coming back. I love your background because it's similar. I think you had a lot more time in construction than I did, but I started in mechanical contracting. I think I told you that at some point, and it's just a way to ground everything that we're talking about here in reality when you have to go on a job site and you have to.
Price a job up, like all of the things that you learn when you're in contracting, uh, really, really benefit all the stuff we talk about on this show. So let's talk about this actual sort of, it's not one project, right? It's a more of a program that you've rolled out across the portfolio. So let me ask some sort of rapid fire questions just to sort of give people context for this sort of case study that we're about to talk about.
So who's on your vendor, uh, team?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, for sure. So, uh, Andorix Wayne, who's joining us today. Is our network integration and managed services partner. Uh, there's a couple of manufacturers that include DZS, uh, or formerly Dawson's zone, uh, as well as [00:06:00] HFR, uh, network manufacture equipment manufacturers, uh, Belden is our cabling, uh, partner that we've deployed.
Um, and, uh, and I think that wraps the, uh, the connectivity platform. And then of course, as we mentioned, there's a number of contractor partners that we've engaged with across the country too. Uh, deploy the actual and install the infrastructure.
James Dice: Totally. And give us a sense for the scale of this. How many buildings are we talking about here?
Thano Lambrinos: Uh, we're over 50 buildings now, I believe, uh, between commercial... Uh, residential and retail. Um, and, uh, that equates to the better part of 30, 20, maybe 30 million square feet and several thousand, uh, residential units. So it's, it's pretty significant.
James Dice: And when did this project start? So I want to give people a sense for how long you've been doing this.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, we've been at it for a while. We started in 2019. There was a little pandemic that I think some people have heard of that. Interrupted some of our flow, but didn't really stop us. Uh, we deployed aggressively through [00:07:00] 2020 and 2021. Uh, we wrapped the vast majority of buildings in the latter part of 21, uh, into 22 and have been adding as we go and in maintenance mode with a number of them.
James Dice: Cool. And last question in our little rapid fire round here, talk about the results that you've either seen since then, or the way that you think about the results from doing this.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, I, I consider this an enormous success, uh, considering the very disparate state that our portfolio was generally in before we started this program.
Uh, the results are both qualitative and quantitative. Uh, from a quantitative perspective, directly related to those sites that had infrastructure, traditional network infrastructure, and we'll talk about the differences as we go through this discussion, uh, we were able to cycle those infrastructures out and save.
Between 60 and 70 percent on capital costs, [00:08:00] uh, and 50 plus percent on our ongoing service costs, uh, for those buildings that had no infrastructure, the visibility that we gained from a, uh, more qualitative standpoint was significant, uh, and the foundation that we laid to allow, allow for future retrofits and expansion, uh, will.
Continue to serve us into the future with everything that we do in those assets, uh, and as we start to look at ways of leveraging the data, the possibilities are endless. So. Just a couple of snippets and we can get into some details as we go. But, uh, but this was a huge deal for us for sure.
James Dice: Yeah, we'll dive into the results a little bit more detail later on.
Wayne Kim is here as well with us, founder and CEO at Andorix. Wayne, can you talk about, um, your history in the industry and sort of, uh, tell us the story of Andorix because this is the first time we've, we've heard from you guys on the show as
well.
Wayne Kim: Sure. Hi, James. Uh, appreciate it, uh, inviting [00:09:00] us, uh, for this.
Um, vocation, I'm, I'm the, the founder and the CEO of Endorex. And really it's a, it's a journey that I've been on for the last 25 years. It's really about technology. And, and when the cloud was not a cloud back in 2000, that's when we started this journey of how to provide a services, manage services or evaluating services for the, the internet industry that is exploding.
And basically what we were doing is that we're providing a. Uh, IT services that are essential to the service providers who are in the data centers that are basically connecting, uh, the, the worldwide web. And we had, you know, we got funded out of California and then, and, and so on, and we grew that until the dot com crashed.
And we had to realize that what is real needs to be is that we need to make money. And so we shut down a whole bunch of things, came back to Canada and focused on like real [00:10:00] services that are going to be generated. And one of the key things is that we partner with the folks who actually own the high, you know, high pipes.
Speed pipes that needs to be able to deliver the massive amount of data. And so that is the, the company that I founded, you know, 25 years ago, 24, 23 years ago. And, and then, and, and basically with that, we grew that business. And in 2015, you know, when, you know, there was a, there was a, this whole concept of, Hey, there is a digitization, there is a smart building ideas.
What can we do with this thing? And so I got onto that, you know, the, the train. And then I said, okay, I've got the IVMP, smart building platform. I want to be able to deploy the first to deploy in the building. And, and we did. And we had, uh, one of the other property owners in Toronto that wanted to do this thing.
And we jumped on it and said, let me put my amazing software in it. And we got there and says, [00:11:00] okay, where's the data? Uh, they said, I don't know. Like, IT people don't know, the building operations people don't know, so we had to literally have our technology engineers go and search out where the networks were.
We were able to find access control. Okay, where is the HVAC? Where is the security? Where's the metering? Like it just goes on and on and on. And it took almost about 4 to 6 months to find all of the network. We needed to bring it into a centralized location where we are able to ingest that data. Right? So.
One thing that I realized that in order to make the building smart, you better have the network before you could start anything. So that was the lesson learned. And at that point, I said, there's no point trying to bring intelligence in a platform into the building without the network. And that building, that I got involved in 2015, was a brand new building.
So that tells [00:12:00] you the state of where people are thinking in terms of how do I create a, you know, digitize this building for the smart journey. And I think that's when I sort of said, you know what? I think we need to relook at this thing because we're not going to be able to make money. We invested like 300, 000 to do this particular project and gave it with nothing.
But what it did was that it taught us that the, the, before you do any journey into this space, You need the network. Network is the key and digitization of that data and bring it into the, what we call the smart building platform or data lake, whatever that needs to be done. You cannot scale the building transformation without that.
So I think that was the, my, my journey to it. And, and after learning that process, I heard about this company called Quadril. That was forming a new company and, and, and going through the innovation journey. And I [00:13:00] wanted to be able to get involved and say, Hey, let's get the network in first before you go through anything else.
I think that was the, the, you know, that was a 2018, I don't know if you remember that. We're going through it. And one of the things that we need to do it cheaper, faster and more effective. And it's got to last. One of the things that we learned from the, the IT is that IT system only lasts for three to four years.
Whereas a building, you know, elevator doesn't last three to four years, it's 20 years. HVAC lasts for 20 years. How do we deliver the platform that will be able to last for 15, 20 years? And one of the first thing we did was, we got to pick as a fiber, as a platform. And because of the future is, is, is going to be, you know, 5G, 6G, all the G's are coming, that requires the fiber as, as a backbone.
Uh, based, uh, based, based on that. And, and then on top of that is that whatever you'd be able to do, you don't have to replace for a lot, uh, you know, 20 years. So those [00:14:00] things, you gotta think like the, you know, the, the building owners rather than IT, and I think that was a journey that we have taken, and I think that's where we are today with, you know,
with,
Wayne Kim: with, uh, Quadrant.
James Dice: So Thano, when did you start down this path and, and why, and can you talk about what the goals were at the beginning of this?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. We started back in. The latter part of 2018 planning out what this entire transformation was going to look like and what we were hoping for, for it to yield in the years to come.
One of the major things that we realized as we looked at our portfolio is that. Everything existed in silos. Systems, softwares, uh, infrastructure, it all did a great job, in some cases good, in some cases frankly bad, job of doing the job that it was meant to do in a silo, and that wasn't going to enable us to realize the outcomes that not [00:15:00] only have we realized today, but what we're looking to realize in the future.
So, when we thought about it, and when I use the, this bad real estate analogy, and I, I wrote it in an article in, for RealCom a few years ago, when we think about connectivity, we think about it as the foundation of our digital transformation strategy. You can't build a building without a foundation. That is meant to last the test of time, hundreds of years, and in the same fashion, you can't build a digital strategy without a solid concrete and rebar foundation of connectivity.
So that's why we started. We, we looked at it as an, as an essential piece. Uh, to moving Quadril strategy forward to drive on the outcomes of operational cost reduction to drive on the outcomes of risk reduction, especially around cyber security, uh, to reduce energy use and carbon footprint to enhance operational efficiency [00:16:00] to improve experiences and really differentiate our assets from our competitive set.
It sounds funny to say that connectivity and. Uh, building network infrastructure and an IOT network and, and Wi Fi and other connectivity platforms. are critical to that overall strategy, but you can't get anywhere without it.
James Dice: Totally. And you came on the show last year with KODE Labs and we talked about the, the software platform that you were trying to enable.
And it seems like if I can just sort of like summarize the two episodes here, um, In our conversations about these projects, you're, you started here and realized that you wanted to get there. You wanted to do FDD, you wanted to do supervisory control for energy savings. You wanted to do more, right? You wanted to do a bunch of stuff and you realized, okay, this is the beginning, the infrastructure to enable that is the network layer.
Thano Lambrinos: Absolutely. That it was incredibly clear early on that. While [00:17:00] possible to band aid and slap a number of things together to try our best to get the data out of these systems, it wasn't going to be conducive to long term scale. As we started to, uh, as buildings evolved and as we retrofitted systems, as we added systems, as we added IoT devices, As we looked at the proliferation of technology in real estate, it became very clear that we needed a strong foundation in order to, uh, realize this.
Idea of the single pane of glass that everybody talks about so flippantly. Uh, but what I would like to think we're actually, we have actually implemented. And, you know, one example I'll give you is we. Deployed very early on, uh, we're working on an asset in Chicago with a partner, uh, and Dorix was our partner on that asset as well from an infrastructure [00:18:00] standpoint, deployed the network, the IOT network, and the cellular DAS infrastructure, and we deployed some technologies that were very nascent.
And frankly, uh, didn't yield the results that we wanted to yield. Um, I will bring up KODE because they are one of our partners and we've have spoken to them here before. Because of the infrastructure that we had deployed in that building and because of the, the general capabilities and quality of the KODE platform, but certainly because of the infrastructure, we were able to stand up that smart building platform in the course of a couple of weeks.
And entirely remotely because the connectivity infrastructure was there. All of the systems throughout the building were available on that infrastructure. Uh, and it was very easy and, and safe to provide remote access with the cyber security controls and the vendor access infrastructure that we put into place.
So, so to that end, you know, [00:19:00] we, we realized it very early on that while possible, it, it was going to be probably, Uh, less, extremely less cost effective in the longterm to deploy traditionally and certainly wouldn't allow us the ability to scale and, uh, and, and, and realize the outcomes the way that we have thus far.
James Dice: So Wayne, I saw your chuckle there when he, when he brought up the project related to Chicago with KODE Labs, can you talk about how, you know, It sounds like you guys started out as software providers and that now are just doing the network layer. Now you're partnering with the software application providers.
Can you talk about that partnership and how important it's for you guys to work with them and, and vice
versa?
Wayne Kim: Uh, you, you know what, you know, it's absolutely, absolutely the, the most important thing because at the what KODE Labs is that they need the data and we are the collector of that data. And what we are doing is that whenever they, they come to us and say, Hey, we're, we're deploying.
You know, ABC buildings and within a [00:20:00] day or two, they have a connectivity, they have access to data, they have access to normal data, and they'll start working on it. Like it's, it's, it's crazy in terms of how scale that you could actually deploy the, the intelligent building platform. You could actually deploy multiple sites, three, four buildings at a time, where it used to take eight months, ten months, twelve months, and a year and a half to do any one building.
You're talking about the scale is beyond, you know, it's imaginary, you can imagine. So I think from that perspective, I think it's, it's amazing. Absolutely genius in terms of how the partnership between us, you know, the KODE Labs cannot be KODE Labs without us. And we cannot be, you know, like joining together basically is delivering the vision of Quadreal.
I think that's how I want to put it. [00:21:00] And we are working very closely with the KODE Labs and the team. And we, each of us knows the value of the both companies. And we are, we're basically saying, here's the KODE Labs, they're amazing. And, and KODE Labs is saying the thing you cannot do without the network. So, so I think those are the collaboration work that we're doing together.
James Dice: Awesome. Yeah, that's great. Um, Dano, can you talk about the, the state of your networks and why that was a problem other than enabling software platforms, like we're talking about? Why was this a problem the way the networks were before? Uh, the way that people describe it to me is like, it's a hodgepodge of unmanaged spaghetti wires going everywhere.
Can you talk about why that was the problem the way it was and specifically around cybersecurity?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. Hodgepodge. And spaghetti were two of the words that I was actually going to use. So you took them out of my head. A cluster, if you will, without the latter part of that phrase, um, is, is kind of the state that things were in.
So it [00:22:00] presents issues on a few different fronts. As you mentioned, the spaghetti side of it is an infrastructure piece. We had. Infrastructure throughout our buildings. We had no visibility into where it was physically, where it was, what it was doing, if it was active or decommissioned. So created a management and operational issues with respect to simply managing the risers or managing the mechanical and electrical rooms and managing where all this infrastructure resided, understanding if it was active or not active, um, we are very, very aggressively trying to clean up spaces.
Uh, and are trying to ensure that anything that goes into our buildings is well documented, is constantly, uh, updated with changes so that we understand what's active and what's inactive, so that we can, uh, properly manage our spaces from a physical standpoint. The other point that you touched on, Uh, is absolutely appropriate as well from a cyber security perspective.
We [00:23:00] had a number of different networks with unmanaged internet connections. Some we were paying for, some we weren't paying for through vendors. Uh, connections lit up all over the place that we had zero visibility into, which just created openings for bad actors to wreak whatever havoc they chose to wreak.
Thankfully, we were not, and real estate generally speaking hasn't been a Target, but they're opportunistic folks, right? And what we've learned, uh, through my participation in the real estate cyber consortium to give that group a little bit of a plug, um, is that because of the opportunistic nature of bad actors.
Sometimes they stumble into buildings, and there are now case studies of hackers coming into buildings and taking down elevators, and taking down HVAC systems, and taking down lighting systems. And because of that unmanaged nature of a lot of these assets, those buildings were left [00:24:00] beyond repair for several weeks at a time.
So, from a cyber standpoint, it was a huge risk, and one of the things that Implementing this infrastructure allowed us to do was gain that visibility where we had none before. So beyond those other outcomes, the, the last piece that I'll say on the visibility front. Is genuinely having visibility into the devices that are connected to that infrastructure.
And as we evolve, and I'll be frank and transparent here. Uh, we have a bunch of work to still do in that space, uh, but we are working towards being able to understand every single device, what it is, what it's connected to. We have a lot of this information already. But our goal is to amalgamate it into a single place where my team in concert and partnership with various IT folks that are interested can effectively manage the cybersecurity program and can effectively run asset management on.
Uh, on our infrastructure elements throughout the [00:25:00] buildings.
James Dice: You talked earlier about how you have your, you know, vendor team, you know, you have Belden on the cabling, et cetera, et cetera, Andorix helping you with what we're about to talk about. Um, can you talk about that buying process? Like what were the options that you were considering?
Why did you choose this, um, you know, these preferred hardware providers and then Andorix as a service provider? Can you talk about that piece?
Thano Lambrinos: So when we started looking at... The connectivity strategy and the fact that it would enable everything to come. We were very methodical and stepped in our approach.
I also didn't want to do something everybody had already done that wasn't going to scale because in my past life, I had deployed a number of. Traditional network infrastructures, active network infrastructures with all of the big names and logos on the equipment that you would expect that are very, very, uh, [00:26:00] expensive.
And as Wayne said earlier, life cycle very quickly, which adds a significant spend to not only the capital budget of an asset, but also the ongoing operational budget. So we took a step back and looked at other technologies and looked at things differently. We evaluated all of the traditional active network vendors.
We evaluated a series of manufacturers on the passive optical network side. And our first major decision gate was, were we going to go traditional or were we going to Uh, try our hand at passive optical networks, which hadn't, or PON, which hadn't been deployed at scale across buildings. There had been smatterings of it here and there, uh, but never at scale.
Everybody looked at me like I was crazy when I thought to do it in the first place, but the value proposition, the advancements in the technology. And the cost of it was too tempting to not at least pilot in a single building. Uh, so when we evaluated all of the [00:27:00] manufacturers, we landed on Dawson because of their, uh, cost and technology profile, uh, there was a number of, uh, leveling elements that went into the evaluation of all of these different manufacturers.
Um, and when we looked at Dawson's preferred partners. Uh, and Oryx was their preferred partner in Canada, so we aligned with them, uh, to deploy our first pilot building, uh, that was 745 Thurlow in Vancouver. So, in summation, it was, it was very stepped, and we went through each of the different elements, rather than looking at it, uh, holistically and make a, make a single buying purchase, we dove deep into, What type of infrastructure do we want to deploy?
Who are the manufacturers in that space? Let's do our own independent evaluation of the manufacturers. Identify a manufacturer. Who are the service providers that are working for that manufacturer? And then identify the one that best works for us. And that's how we got to where we're at [00:28:00] today.
James Dice: Brilliant.
Okay. Just take us through the rest of the deployment phases then. So that was like, um, category evaluation, vendor selection, piloting in one building, you said. Where did you go from there for people to kind of think about the roadmap here?
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, absolutely. So after the successful pilot in the first building, Um, we were actually doing a couple of things in parallel.
Uh, we wanted to prove out the use cases, uh, or the deployment use cases in an existing building, which is why 745 Thurlow in Vancouver was selected. At the same time, we had construction projects in flight that I didn't want to miss. So we were designing and getting into early stages of deployment of the infrastructure, uh, at major.
Uh, developments like the Vancouver post office now known as the post, which is Amazon's, uh, major AWS is major headquarters in Canada, in Vancouver. And so as we looked at, I'll talk about our existing infrastructure. As we looked at the pilot and the [00:29:00] success of the pilot and those lessons learned, uh, we started, uh, looking at the entire portfolio and breaking it out into manageable.
Uh, chunks throughout the various different regions. Um, we went through, you know, again, a very stepped and pragmatic process to, uh, to assess the buildings, to assess their current state, uh, to work through the various, uh, infrastructure designs, both network, uh, and cabling. Uh, and then grouped them appropriately across the platform, which, as I mentioned, we were doing during COVID, which was very interesting to do, but still managed to deliver a significant portion in that time, uh, and then, and then worked with, uh, our, our preferred Uh, uh, networking partners, uh, our managed services partners with Andorix, our infrastructure partners, the manufacturers.
I mentioned Belden. I forgot to mention them during the buying process, but they have a significant market share in North America. We looked at those technologies as well as we were evaluating, uh, and landed on them. And then [00:30:00] we, we actually tendered, uh, a number of the installation. Uh, contractors across the country to deploy the physical infrastructure, uh, to deploy, uh, the, the racking infrastructure, which Handorix then would go and, uh, and install their networking equipment into and, and make final, uh, connections.
So, so yeah, so, so we went through this big approach of looking at the, uh, the condition of the portfolio, uh, asset by asset, because the unfortunate reality is everyone's a little bit different. Identifying a design that was appropriate and a game plan that was appropriate. Um, and then, uh, and then tendering.
Now, when we start looking at actual rollout and implementation, that's where things get a little spicy and very interesting. Uh, because as you can imagine, because of this nuance, um, and because of the fact that every infrastructure was managed by somebody different, some vendor, um, or in some cases nobody, uh, there was a lot of work that had to go into connecting with various different vendors, working with all.
Uh, [00:31:00] the HVAC controls contractors, working with the lighting controls contractors, working with the elevator contractors, the energy metering, uh, providers, etc., etc., going down the list, uh, and creating a, a very, very methodical method of procedure when it came to cutting over. Which is one of the challenges that I, I'll talk about in a bit, but, uh, managing that cutover process in an existing building is a big one, especially around mission critical systems in an asset.
So hopefully that gives you and your listeners a sense of, of the approach that we went through.
James Dice: Yeah, totally. And just before we move on, um, real quick, cutting over is basically they were, they were managing their own network and now you're putting their devices onto the, the converged network. Is that what you're saying?
Thano Lambrinos: Absolutely. So cutting over essentially means exactly as it sounds, we're cutting a system over from one infrastructure to another, uh, that introduced a number of challenges, both physical. You know, can we physically remove this cable and plug it [00:32:00] in somewhere else? And from, uh, a network and management standpoint as well, uh, aligning with the current managers or lack thereof, uh, to make sure that when we fired these, this new network up, all the screens on the other end came on and people could manage the building as normal.
Wayne Kim: Yeah, and James, I think one of the, one of the, and Thano, uh, could, you know, uh, probably, you know, support this thing is that... One of the key things of success is that you need to pick the right partner who is going to be standing behind, going through the, from the design to deployment to the, the execution and, and, and, and commissioning, and then cut over.
And I think that's, that's really, really important. Otherwise. You, you are going to have a problem. And, and, and on top of that is that, you know, not only just doing those kinds of work, it is the beyond that is that, okay, I am responsible for next five years. This [00:33:00] network is going to be up and running. And I think that that's the type of commitment you need as a part of the partnership for Quadrio to be able to commit to the, the, this kind of a massive.
Uh, you know, the transformation.
James Dice: And, and this is a good place to talk about this. Um, we, we've written a lot of content. We've done a buyer guide around this, this, this sort of network layer here. And we've sort of done a deep dive around what it, what's required as far as a managed services provider. We call them network managers or network management services.
So Wayne, can you talk about like what goes into that? What is your scope of work here? What are all the things that you're doing on a monthly, annual basis to, to keep the network up and running? Yeah.
Wayne Kim: So, so I think what we, what we do and, and what we are, we, we have consistently been doing is that we just don't do manage of the network.
What we do is that we go into the portfolio, like the quadril and others that we are, we are involved in right now is that we go from the design. We go right from the, [00:34:00] the, the site survey to the design. Once the design is done, then we create a bill of materials to the, all of the requirements that it needs to be.
And then we go through the actual, how are we going to be able to deploy it and commission it based on the building, whether it's a brand new building or, or you're, you want to call it the existing platforms, and then we deploy it and we create a, uh, you know, the. The requirements, uh, documents, which will be given to the, the, the electrical contractors, whoever contractor who's going to be running those fibers in the buildings and making sure that they're actually deploying the devices as we have specified.
And so that we are going from end to end to make sure that everything is done. And then we actually do the, all of the connections and to test all the network. And then we go through the commissioning of that saying, okay, we're, we're, we're done. And then now we start connecting. Integrating into the building systems, whether it's, you know, BAS systems, [00:35:00] whether it's security, elevators, you know, and, and then on top of that, we're not only providing the connecting the building automation systems, we're connecting all of the IoT devices, we're connecting Wi Fi, you know, building Wi Fi, you know, the common area Wi Fi systems.
We're also connecting the, uh, All of the sensors that are connecting to it as well. So we're doing complete management. Otherwise. It's going to fall apart and then once that has been running and then on top of that, we are doing that, you know, the wireless systems as well as a part of the, the, you know, the part of the back converse network that we are delivering.
Once that is done, we actually start saying, okay, day two, we're managing it from today. It's cable live. And then we make sure that operates 24 seven. We have a, uh, not basically on call. We have a 24 seven operation monitoring all of the building systems. Which usually didn't happen before, like it's, it's a hodgepodge of things that you talked [00:36:00] about.
Who, who knows what goes down. We make sure that it's up and running and we have a ticketing system notification to make sure. And if it's a critical systems, we have a, a people on the street that will be able to go to the site and, and, and do what needs to be done as well. So what we, what we're talking about, we look at building as a mission critical systems within the IT systems.
And that's how we operate. To make sure that the quadri, when they're looking at from their building commercial buildings, that's a 24 7 with two 3000 people working, and you cannot go down. And I think that's what, you know, what is important to be able to recognize, to be able to know that if you are coming into this journey of integration, you gotta go all the way to the end.
Otherwise, you know, the, the quadri of the world or the major prop portfolio, property owners will not be able to trust. And, and, and, and be able to go into that journey.
James Dice: Okay, great. I want to circle back on a couple of things that we talked [00:37:00] about so far technically here. Um, one is passive optical networking.
Can we, can we talk about the differences between that and active networks and just talk about, Wayne, maybe, maybe you start, um, on the technical side of this. We don't want to get too deep into the weeds of physics and, you know, passing signals along a glass, uh, glass, uh, cable, but, but just talk about if I'm a buyer.
Thank you. What do I need to know about why would I go passive optical versus active?
Wayne Kim: Yeah. So, so one of, one of the key thing is that passive optical network is just what it says, passive. It's not an active system. What it is, is that you have a one single central system, you know, head end that basically have all of the intelligence and then it's, it's right on the fiber.
And, and, and basically fiber is a light that goes through, and it will go a long way. I'm talking about a long way, you know, 5, 10 kilometers. And in, in doing it, what you will be able to do is that you have what we call the splitter. [00:38:00] Basically it splits the light into, you know, as it goes, splitter with the, with the optics, it will split up to, you know, 2 to 1, 4 to 1, 16 to 1, 32 to 1, 64 to 1.
So it splits. It splits. So what it does, as they are traveling to that destination, there's no power required. So that is why the passive optical network is so inherently used on the fiber to the home. Because when you go under the ground, there's no power. So, in order to be able to deliver that and, and be able to do these things are extremely important on the passive output network technology.
What it does within the building is that if you want, the future is that you need to, you need to be able to deliver the fiber right to the edge to create the, the, the best, what we call the, the secure, uh, the fastest network that is possible. So what, [00:39:00] uh, uh, compared to traditionally, you know, the active network, you have a, you know, core switch.
With the distribution switch, edge switches, and so on. And every one of those, you need a power core to be able to do that. And what this does, it eliminates all of that, which means that basically, you know, your power usage within the building becomes really low. And all of these traditional Ethernet, you know, the switches, are using the Cat5, Cat6 type of cable, which is massive amount as you think about it.
And it creates, uh, the heat and, and, and, you know, the, the, the space constraint that is needed within, within the building risers, there's issue with those things. And by bringing the fiber right to the edge and converting that into the what we call ONT, which is basically converting the light to electrical and then plug it at the edge, the devices.
And, and that really differentiates, as I said, number one in terms of the cost of replacement. What we call, we're talking about [00:40:00] the life cycle of the product, right? It becomes much, much less because there's no moving parts. And all of the, the, the, the splitters and, and, and, and the cross connect and so on.
They're all passive devices, which will last for 20 years. Only thing that you have to do is refresh is maybe the, you know. The line cards that is supporting today 1GB to 10GB and so on and so forth. So this is really a huge advantage for building like this into the cost effective way of deploying a network.
Thano Lambrinos: So when we looked at the difference between active and passive, as Wayne described, there were a few things. Cost, obviously one of them. As mentioned off the top, because of the infrastructure requirements being significantly less, because we can take a single fiber and split it. Up to 64 ways, our standard right now is 4 to 8 at max.
And take it as far as we can to the edge, the [00:41:00] requirement for structured cabling, uh, or copper cabling, your Cat6, Cat6As, moved to being only required for the last mile. So, that allowed us to, uh, deploy networks over large buildings with very minimal cabling infrastructure. Uh, leveraging the splitter technology allowed us to take fiber as far as we could.
Uh, without having switching all over the place. Um, and the, as Wayne described, the opportunity to simply replace minor components saved us enormous amounts of money on lifecycle refresh, because as you can imagine, when you're looking at a traditional network having to replace basically everything, you're paying for the system over and over again every four to seven years, if you're lucky, but probably realistically five.
Uh, five or six. So the cost advantages, the, the, the, the cost savings advantages, the operational advantages, the space savings advantages, especially when dealing in existing [00:42:00] buildings with constrained spaces, um, the energy usage advantages made it very clear that this was the technology and the solution to go with.
James Dice: And for the mechanical engineers listening that don't know anything about IT, um, like the one asking this question, uh, why do these devices and pieces of hardware need to be replaced every five years, uh, in the traditional system?
Thano Lambrinos: Well, when you talk about an active piece of equipment, it is just that. It is active.
There are moving parts and pieces. And there's power to these devices, so they heat up, and over time, not only do they fail, but just like any other piece of technology, they become unsupported. Uh, when we look at fiber, fiber is glass. And, uh, the signals move across the glass at the speed of light. And the last thing, the last time I checked, there's really nothing faster than the speed of light.
With maybe the exception of James and I running to the bar after these conferences are over. Um, [00:43:00] but that aside, uh, it's, it's an infrastructure that stands the test of time. The splitting devices, as Wayne mentioned, are completely passive, so they're unpowered. They can last 25, 30 years. Uh, the only thing that would make them fail is decay, or somebody hitting them with a hammer, or cutting the fiber with a knife.
Um, and the technology being central, uh, primarily with powered devices at the edge, require the, uh, the number of devices that you need to refresh, uh, very... Uh, in significant in comparison to an active network.
James Dice: Okay, before we get into the lessons learned, I want to, I want to get the challenges from you guys because we've been talking about a lot of benefits here, but I just want to, we published a deployment profile sort of summarizing this on our website.
People can go to buyers, um, buyers hub on our website and go to deployment profile. Um, the results from this, the, the, the numbers that, uh, that we published, um, that we got from Andorix here are pretty, I want to just want to read them because they're pretty [00:44:00] compelling. Energy savings of 70%. 65 percent space savings, 50 to 70 percent lower service costs.
So that would be like, if someone else like the, you know, the controls vendor is managing the network for the building automation system, you're, you're getting rid of that. Cost and centralizing it, right. And then, um, 65 percent cost savings. Uh, we've been talking about all the ways this, in which this saves cost.
Pretty, pretty compelling results in terms of the financial side of this as well.
Thano Lambrinos: Absolutely. And, and it was one of the major drivers in, in this decision making process. And the reality is the traditional big logos and the named vendors in the networking space. I've just had the industry convinced that they're the only solution, which is why everybody looked at us when we were deploying this infrastructure.
And we're very, very skeptical that it would work. As Wayne shared [00:45:00] earlier, this technology has been in place. Used by the telecommunications, uh, industries for, for, for many years, 30 plus years, 30 plus years delivering fiber to the home. Now there were some limitations in, in certain areas with the technology early on that made it difficult to deploy in these types of environments.
But as technology goes, there's been significant advancements and it enabled us to do so. So, you know, when we looked at the numbers, they almost seemed. Uh, unrealistic, but they were certainly real. And, uh, I have a number of direct comparison case studies that we've put together, uh, that show just how real they are.
James Dice: Totally. All right. Let's get into the challenges. Thano, I know that there were a few here that you want to sort of bring up. Uh, let's pretend we're thinking about educating a buyer that hasn't done this yet, and you're basically like, here are the roadblocks that we hit that we don't want you to hit. Uh, what were the, what were the challenges?
And we can talk about the resolution to each of them as well.
Thano Lambrinos: For sure. I would say [00:46:00] probably the first one on the top of the list as you're looking at retrofitting. And I'll talk a little bit about new construction as well. Uh, but let's focus on retrofitting to start. System discovery prior to cutting over the existing infrastructure to your new infrastructure was a major challenge.
Um, it was a challenge for a number of reasons. It was a challenge because we didn't know what we didn't know. It was a challenge because of relationship issues, or maybe not issues, but lack of understanding from our vendors into what we were actually looking for. Because they're not network specialists.
In a lot of cases, as you joke, James, you've got a mechanical background. That doesn't mean you know how a network works. You just know that you need it there to run your system. So a lot of the things that we were asking may not have been appropriately responded to and And and to be frank we probably could have done a bit of a deeper dive into some of these sites before we started.
So that was And, and [00:47:00] that manifests in starting to switch over and everybody going, Uh oh, why isn't it coming back on? Or we turned something off and we thought it was only going to turn this off. Why did it turn a bunch of other stuff off? Or when we turned it back on, not everything came back on. So, so there was a lot of pre work.
There's a ton of pre work that you need to do. You have to go really through the buildings with a fine tooth comb, uh, to understand everything physically where it is, how it's connected. Uh, what it's serving so that you can appropriately cut over, that's your mitigation. Uh, one of the things that you can do that we, that even despite these issues that I think we did very well, uh, was risk mitigation with respect to a back out plan.
Um, we had to use it several times, if I'm honest. We'd cut over and things wouldn't work and we'd have to revert back to its existing state and get it up and running again. Uh, pack up at 5am, go home, sleep during the day. And then try again at midnight the next [00:48:00] night, uh, start over again. So, so yeah, it's, uh, it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but when done it's the, as we've been talking about, the value is, is pretty great.
Wayne Kim: I know I wanted to add one more is that, you know, we, we, we at Andorex and lower DTGS, you know, who actually had a, you know, a password for network infrastructure. They have not deployed in this mass scale, 20 million square foot, you know, 40 buildings. And you are going to encounter a lot of different things.
And so it was a vendor who actually learned a lot. Can you imagine that? Like they've, they've, they had a, uh, you know, they're deploying it, this technology for the football field, like football stadiums and, and, you know, the hotels. So, but in the commercial building, you're completely different. So, to be able to do this thing day in and day out, and I don't think they really understood it as well, until we actually had to put them in and says, [00:49:00] look, you are going to do a cuttable with us every single building, every single night.
And you have to have that kind of what we call the, the, the, you know, the, the, the relationship to be able to bring this thing together. And this is a major lesson, I don't care who it is, unless you do that kind of commitment from the vendor. And us and from the, the, the, you know, you know, quadro, it's not going to work.
So I think that was the major six criteria that we went through together. Right.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah. I'll add to that a little bit, James, you know, there was a big learning curve for the manufacturer, uh, that actually required their engineers, uh, to come in and step in, in a few situations and create. Uh, custom updates and firmware updates to their equipment so that they could handle whatever the, uh, device or system that we were connecting to, uh, so that we wouldn't have issues.
So, you know, hopefully those who select, whether it's our [00:50:00] vendors or other vendors that are listening to this, uh, hopefully they've learned from a lot of the stuff that we've done. Cause I will say with some confidence that we were the first to deploy this technology at scales, at scale in the built environment.
Um, that, that a lot of those issues are mitigated, but to Wayne's point, it was critical to have them on the phone with us as we were doing cutovers, saying, okay, this works, next device, this doesn't work, what are you seeing on your end, Andorix, what are you seeing on your end, uh, uh, Dawson's Zone, DZS, the manufacturer, and let's see if we can fix this in real time, or if we have to back out and do something, uh, engineer something custom to make it work.
So, Uh, we were certainly out in the, you know, in the middle of the Amazon with machetes blazing a trail. Um, but now we've carved through it and it's been rinse and repeat.
James Dice: And it sounds like a major piece of this that everyone can do, no matter whether they're using this infrastructure or a different one, is go out in your buildings and figure out what devices you have, what networks you have, and with [00:51:00] those networks.
What are the ways in which it's set up? What are the devices you have that are running the networks themselves and just do an assessment, right? Um, and the way that we've sort of framed this when we're advising buyers and advising building owners is it starts with your strategy. We talked about at the beginning of this.
What are you trying to accomplish? But then what you're trying to accomplish depends on your network in some way, shape or form, like we've been talking about. And so you need to figure out what are all those things. And that requires some sort of assessment to go out and figure out what's in your buildings, um, as a, as a first step that needs to happen at some point.
Thano Lambrinos: And sometimes these assessments are cut and dry. Um, you know, our folks and Wayne's teams. were literally crawling under tables and into closets and finding stuff all over the place that had been installed. And you're like, why is this even here? Just because there was space available and a plug in a lot of cases.
So just, just throw it in that room, put it in the janitor's closet. It doesn't matter. There was stuff all over the place. [00:52:00] So these assessments can get pretty hairy sometimes. And you have to be ready for that as, as you start going through this, uh, through this process.
Wayne Kim: One other, one other comment that James, I would like to say is that Quadrio is not a network company.
And, and, and what happened is that you go into the communication closet and nothing is labored. How do you know how to connect them to make sure that you're not connect, disconnecting this building from that building when you're doing a campus of 2, 2. 4 million square foot downtown building? And it's been there for like 20 years.
And, and just to try to trace that, to make sure where they all go, to me, that is the, the expertise that is needed to make sure you don't bring the whole building down. And I think that's really the, the, the type of, uh, you know, the, the, because of who we were, we were a technology company, we're a networking company for 20 [00:53:00] years.
We're able to go in, not as a, you know, the building connectivity company. It's, it's the background in our engineering that allow us to be able to go in and labor every one of those things. And then when we did a cutover, it worked. So, so those are the kind of what we call the, the, the lessons learned, especially.
For, uh, you know, it's not a fainted heart to be able to do that because you're not going to a brand new building. These are buildings that has been built for, you know, 30, years and, and been there forever, so.
James Dice: Okay, what's our other, uh, other challenges that, that are on your list, Thano?
Thano Lambrinos: We talked a little bit about retrofit.
Let's talk about new construction. A completely different set of challenges. You're not dealing with existing infrastructure. You're not dealing with... Legacy vendors, everything's brand new. However, uh, sometimes more difficult than existing buildings. And I'll explain why you've got a traditional [00:54:00] construct that is deployed through most projects where contractors are responsible for manufacturers within.
Their respective divisions, for those not familiar with master format, you can look it up on Google, and when I say things like Division 27 Communications and 26 Electrical and 23 Mechanical and 28 Security, that'll start to make sense. But typically these systems were, or these divisions were delivered in silos.
When we come in and start... Asking them all to connect to a single infrastructure, despite the fact that we place it in division 27, it still requires a lot of coordination to ensure that all of the vendors are not disconnected. Again, very traditionally, standing up their own infrastructure to stand up their system so that they can check the box, say that they're done, commission their system, get paid, and get out, which is what they want to do.
So, challenge on new [00:55:00] construction is coordination. Um, and we struggled with it early. Um, what it turned into was us writing our own divisional specifications and ensuring that there was cross collaboration between all of those, uh, all of those trade divisions and Division 27 and frankly, Division 25 as well as we looked at the integration layer of this entire strategy so that we could implement.
And the key is The key to success and the key to overcoming these challenges is documentation, is appropriate design and specification, um, is ensuring that when procuring Uh, because, just because you specified a certain way doesn't mean they're going to try to sell it to you in the same way that you specified it is ensuring that what is being sold, uh, is aligned with your specifications.
And then it still doesn't stop there. You still need to check as they submit shop drawings and what [00:56:00] they're actually going to install on site and make sure that there's an audit trail that goes back to your initial design. And from there, you're still not done because you need a management. Appropriate level of management oversight from the owner and from, you know, you talk a lot about master systems integrators.
There see, there needs to also be an element of that that's the, the network master system net integrator that comes in and brings all these folks together. And there is early and often engagement between all these parties, uh, that are meant to stand up systems in a new construction environment. So that was a huge challenge for us figuring that out.
The network is always the scapegoat. People look at the network and say, Oh, my system doesn't work because of that. I can't commission because of the network. Uh, the network's not working. Uh, that's why my stuff doesn't work. And 95 percent of the time, it's not true. Most of the time it's because things haven't been configured appropriately.
They haven't been installed appropriately. They didn't follow our specifications or our requirements. And [00:57:00] as we transform and as these mechanical contractors and these electrical contractors and these, uh, metering and AV contractors start to understand this. It'll make it easier, but right now they still think very traditionally.
So as an owner, developer, operator, we need to bring folks in like Andorix and also employ our own expertise on our side to ensure that this stuff gets done properly. And only since we've done that, have we seen it be successful. And we've managed to make them all successes, but some of the earlier ones were very, very painful.
James Dice: And I think sometimes this industry looks at Division 25 as like the, the magic wand that makes everything integrate. And it sounds like what you're describing is, yes, for a portion of the stack, but then there still needs to be the integration of these concepts into each individual specification, uh, and, and for the rest of the contractors, the rest of the stakeholders.
Thano Lambrinos: Yeah, [00:58:00] absolutely true. I think that one of the things that we have now, I believe, done very well As we've written these specifications and kind of brought them in house and are managing them ourselves is ensuring that each of them appropriately points to points either back to division 27 from a physical connectivity integration standpoint and points back to division 25 for call it a software layer system integration.
perspective and both of them are equally as critical because you can't have 25 without 27 and If you just have 27 you just have a bunch of connected stuff that you're not doing anything with so so they're both They're both very necessary in the realization of All the outcomes that I spoke of off the top.
Okay.
James Dice: I think that's a great place to end off you guys. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Any last words for people that we didn't cover?
Thano Lambrinos: So if I can just offer my parting words, uh, if I could just offer my parting words, I would say as difficult as this [00:59:00] sounds, you have to do it. So get started somewhere, start putting your plans together.
Take a very stepped and pragmatic approach to transforming your existing assets and don't build new buildings without considering this infrastructure and the deployment of this infrastructure because you're going to kick yourself later as much as contractors, general contractors, manufacturers continue to throw up, um, words like risk and schedule risk and cost risk.
You have to fight through that in order to get what you want and to realize the outcomes you want on the other end. So if you haven't started, start, and if you have started and smacked your head against the wall, like we have several times, just keep smacking until you go through and, uh, and there's something better on the other side.
Wayne Kim: Yeah, from, from Andorex perspective, uh, James, I think the, the success is really the partnership between the, the, the master system integrator. [01:00:00] That is responsible for end to end. I'm talking about not just portion of it. There are people who just deploy infrastructure and then walk away. It, that, that will be the, the, the probably a hundred percent of failure that you're going to be regretting.
So you need a, find a great partner who is going to be able to do this thing from design all the way through and day two. And responsible for managing this as part of their life cycle. And which means that without that, I think the, they're going to go through a really a tough time. So, you know, find the portfolio type of, you know, the event customer like the Quadril and find a partner, not only Andorex, but anybody who has a similar vision.
To be able to partner it and, and be able to deliver it. I, I think you're gonna have a great success.
James Dice: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your lessons learned, both of you, uh, and we'll talk to you soon.[01:01:00]
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