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Episode 174 is a conversation with James Dice and Brad Bonavida from Nexus Labs.
Episode 174 features James Dice, Rosy and Brad Bonavida from Nexus Labs. In this episode of the Nexus Podcast, the Nexus Labs team breaks down the top stories relevant to energy managers, facility managers, IT/OT managers, and workplace managers.
Introduction (0:50)
At the Nexus (2:04)
Building Performance and Controls (8:30)
Digitizing Operations & Maintenance (13:36)
Integrating, Connecting, and Securing Devices (18:02)
Workplace Experience (21:08)
Sign off (27:43)
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Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tigerâlicensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S680579-16073.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
James Dice: [00:00:00] Hey friends, if you like the Nexus podcast, the best way to continue the learning is to join our community. There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus Pro Membership. It's our global community of smart building professionals. We have monthly events, paywall, deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month.
Second, you can upgrade from the Pro Membership to our courses offering. It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses taught by world leading experts on each topic under the smart buildings umbrella third. And finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions.
The links are below in the show notes. And now let's go on to the podcast.
Welcome back to the nexus podcast. It's your host, James dice. I have Brad with me today. Hey, Brad, how you doing? Great. [00:01:00] Great to, great to be back. Your, your second, your second show here. Um, we are going to do what we did two weeks ago and our, our new format here kind of talk through things to know about that are happening in the smart buildings industry over the last two weeks that our audience should know about.
Um, this is intended to give all of them. Sort of a taste of what's going on in our community and outside of our community. We've heard so much about how people walk their dogs with us or they commute with us, uh, go on trail runs if you're, if you're like the two of us. Right. Um, so this is that, but for the full experience, everyone should realize like the best way to engage with us is to be subscribed to the newsletter.
That's where all the news is coming out. And then. Our full take on each headline, every piece of content we publish invites to all of our events, things to know about. And so basically how to avoid FOMO is [00:02:00] to be a subscriber to the newsletter. Let's talk about a little bit about what we've been up to over the last two weeks at Nexus Labs.
Um, I'm still calling everyone, not, not as much as I want to be, but I said two weeks ago, I've been calling everyone, trying to get everyone to make sure they submit abstracts to, uh, speak at NexusCon this year. I'm still, um, doing that and, uh, we'll be doing that until the deadline on April 5th. So if you're listening to this and it's not April 5th yet, come to our website.
There's a big pop up, a big banner thing for you to submit an abstract. If you're not going to do that, then you're not going to be able to get on stage. Please do that. What have you been up to Brad?
Brad Bonavida: I've also been trying to tell people to submit abstracts and getting on them about that. Uh, there's so many people that I know are going to submit a good one.
So I'm just like reminding them we're waiting for you on this. Um, besides that though, I'm always focused on the Nexus marketplace. We've got. 826 vendors, I believe last time I checked and [00:03:00] 106 categories. We just added our 106 category, which is a service provider category called workplace strategy consultants.
Um, but what I wanted to actually bring up is that we're really trying to. Get better at quantifying when categories are complete. Like, is this, is this done to the point that we want building owners to be able to go in there and they can answer all their own questions. And, uh, I went through all of them and we have 15 core categories that I, you know, define is complete and complete means that.
All of those categories have average pricing info that we've gathered from vendors that are in that space. Um, they have at least 10 vendors listed. Some have like 40 listed. And then there's at least five vendors who filled out their own profile details. So we know that everything that they have is as up to date and as thorough as possible because they're the ones who provided it.
And then we vetted it based on, you know, RFIs and demos and things like that. So that list of 15 is growing weekly and what [00:04:00] we're driving towards.
James Dice: Yeah. And I, this was kind of like a pinch me moment for me when you told me that we had these, I was expecting the marketplace to be a lot less complete, but we've just been hustling over the last year since you've been on board, kind of focusing on it.
We've also had quite a few RFIs that have filled in whole categories. Um, thanks to the building owners that have sort of trusted us with their RFI process. And so those core categories are like all the categories that we talk about all the time, right? FDD. Uh, sustainability reporting, energy management, uh, IAQ, occupancy counting, CMMS, like all the ones that are sort of like at the forefront of the smart buildings world.
We now have enough information that a building owner or a consultant could really get in and at least shortlist. But almost sometimes like get down to one or two with the information we have, which is a huge value to the industry. I'm like patting else, patting ourselves in [00:05:00] the back here, but like, it really is pretty crazy the amount of information that's in here now that someone would have had to do so much work before and Googling it and chat GPT don't have like the nuance that we have when it's sort of comes to sort of creating.
What do they do and how do we create that framework that the, the vendors sort of sit inside, which I think is cool.
Brad Bonavida: If you were a building owner and you were just getting started on one of those core categories, like you wanted to purchase that technology or just learn more about it. If you watched our buyer's guide on it and then went to the category in the marketplace to see what's there to like, you've just done two months of research in 30 minutes.
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's great.
James Dice: Um, you're welcome everyone. Um, all right, I have also, I'm also excited about our new process. Um, we've had our partner program going on for two years now. [00:06:00] We've just each year added something to our partner program. So we have 40 plus vendors that are our partners. Last year, we added the conference, obviously, so we've just allowed them to attend the conference and, um, exhibit in the expo hall at the conference this year.
We had one up at one more time. And so we've added what we're calling an industry analyst portion of the partnership, and we've kicked that off recently with one of our new partners air things, and we're about to take it to all of our existing partners. Um, over the next quarter or so. And I think this is interesting to like kind of note what we've seen so far, which is really helping a vendor understand how they're like, where they fit in the marketplace now that we have this marketplace tool built and given where they fit in the marketplace, what sort of content should they be thinking about producing?
Over the next year as a partner of ours. And I just feel like this process is really [00:07:00] going to be fruitful for our vendors, but not just our vendors, but also like the, the industry as a whole, helping people figure out who their competition is, how they stack up, what stories they might want to tell as a result is I think a really still important thing for.
Helping buyers differentiate between the vendors themselves.
Brad Bonavida: Yeah, we, we have so many conversations externally with people where we bring up the phrase status quo to talk about smart buildings because they'll give a demo or they'll explain what they're trying to do. And. So many people agree that they're really competing against the status quo, which is like no building owner buys this technology and they just keep going the other way.
Um, so I just think this industry analyst is a really good way to dive into that and see like when, when you can position yourself and see who you are and see how your offering really, um, you know, is compelling to building owners, then you can market against the status quo rather than just sitting there trying to differentiate yourselves and fight for 1 [00:08:00] percent of the actual market.
James Dice: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a lot of times it's advocating on behalf of your category, right? So we've talked about to a lot of our partners, your first step is to validate that the category you're in is needed. The second step, once they realize that the status quo is not going to work and your category is going to work, then you can start to differentiate.
But if you don't validate the category first, then it doesn't work. All right. Let's jump into the news from this last two, these last couple of weeks. You want to kick us off?
Brad Bonavida: Yeah, I'll go first. So, uh, our first piece of news is for, is in our building performance and control section. Uh, so that's for like energy managers, that type of person.
Um, and this is, uh, news from us. We finished our battery energy storage RFI. Um, so we had a couple of different. Building owners who sponsored this, uh, we talked about the maintenance management one in our last podcast, but this one, we had some new building owners. They're looking at battery energy storage.
They're trying to figure out, you know, what works, who [00:09:00] they should talk to. We created a list of, I think, 47 questions that were really important to learn about battery storage, uh, vendors and what their offerings were. And we put those out to the battery energy storage market and, um, got replies back, um, and ironically enough, at the same time, you had seen that there was a, another major battery fire, uh, that was just announced.
I think it was in California that that came, that that just happened. Um, so anyway, we've been sharing those results, uh, with our building owners. Um, and maybe just, I have a couple of key things that, that come straight to mind from those results. Well, well, first of all,
James Dice: Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say the reason we prioritize this category, like when you think about battery energy storage, you're not Always connecting that with smart buildings.
But the reason we prioritize this category is when we were doing an annual poll on what building owners are most interested in. And it was pretty hot. Like it was a hot category. And then we had three, I think three [00:10:00] building owners in the particular P gym. Colorado university, Duke university, um, that we're participating in this RFI, like actively seeking out the results.
Um, so for people wondering why we dove in on that, this topic, uh, in particular, uh, that's why.
Brad Bonavida: Yeah. The other, the other big thing of why this is, uh, pertinent now that keeps coming up when we talk to people is the, I believe it's NEM 3. 0, which is the new net energy metering in California that, More or less makes it so that the money that people were getting from having PV panels, uh, it's a lot harder to get the same amount of savings.
So when you're trying to actually calculate the ROI or the justification for adding solar panels, you almost have to have a battery now. So people are pairing those two devices together is kind of one thing that you would put into your building. Um, two quick just takeaways. I was thinking if I could share with our audience a couple things from the [00:11:00] RFI.
The first one, uh, is that almost all the respondents, uh, had an LFP battery, a lithium ion, lithium iron phosphate battery, which is a type of lithium ion battery. So that's kind of like becoming the market standard. Like almost everyone's using those. Um, there was a couple of other, uh, responses from newer technologies, but that definitely dominated.
Um, and the reason that I bring that up is that. We also asked for some dummy pricing, just like how much would it cost to install a one megawatt battery? You know, we gave some, uh, details on the facility, obviously not enough information to give a great quote, but just wanted to see what we could get back.
And all the respondents who gave a price for their LFP installation, or not the installation, just the battery itself, they were like, Super, super close on price. And when I was trying to think like, what does that mean? What's the takeaway here? Um, and I was talking to, uh, Mandy Whedon about this too. She, we're going back and forth on it, but, [00:12:00] um, it kind of tells you that the battery itself is a little bit commoditized with all those vendors.
So then where are they really going to differentiate? And it's really two places that weren't in the quote and it's the software side. First, like most, almost all these providers paired their battery with some sort of a software that's typically doing battery optimization. So it's integrating with your solar, it's integrating with your EV chargers, generators, something like that, or and or they're going to differentiate on the services side.
So there's so much work that you have to do to install these things, uh, utility interconnection request documents. The incentives, the maintenance versus the warranty, finding your contractors. So that's the two areas where it seems like they were really competing more than the battery itself, which seemed a bit commoditized.
I thought that was interesting.
James Dice: Yeah. And I thought that the piece around the software was especially interesting with. The overlap between our, you know, category, the marketplace, there's, we have a category called advanced [00:13:00] supervisory control that we've been producing content on for many years now. And it's so interesting to think about, you know, you have a software application that is already taking control of some devices in your building.
Now, this is another one that could potentially take control of different devices and how much convergence around one controls application. Will we actually have in the building or will it just be different? Different applications. So that'll, that'll be interesting as we, uh, evolve. And we're, we're planning on doing a piece on that, I think in a couple of months.
So,
Brad Bonavida: yep.
James Dice: All right, let's move on. Let's go to digitizing operations and maintenance. Um, we had a article, this is another piece of news from us that we're pulling. Um, I think our goal would be that we create all the news in the industry. That's not where we're at today, but at least in so far in this episode, we are creating the news.
Um, So this one came from us. We produced a piece, um, that I wrote [00:14:00] published recently, which is called what's driving investment and software based refrigerant leak detection. And, um, this has been a fascinating topic to dig into. Um, basically the 2020, um, aim act, which is, was signed into law by president Trump, um, basically started kicking off an aggressive phase down of HFC refrigerants.
And, um, You know, I dug into it from a compliance standpoint, like all these people with, with, um, lots of refrigerant charges and their buildings need to comply with this legislation. But once I unpacked it, it like became really interesting. And I wrote a sentence in the piece that I want to read here, which is you have a mission critical system that leaks an extremely potent greenhouse greenhouse gas at a rate of 20 percent more per or more per year.
So you're, you're leaking 20 percent of this asset. While the cost to replace that [00:15:00] gas skyrockets and regulations tighten year after year, all as the skilled workforce required to manage that resource dwindles. Uh, and someone just told me in a different interview this week, that the average age of refrigeration technician in the United States is 61 years old.
And so this article sort of kicks off this, this deeper dive into technology solutions that are sort of. Uh, at the forefront of of that problem, and so we'll be talking about the different types of leak detection technologies. We'll be talking about specifically for our partners, how our partners are solving those problems.
Uh, so Facilio and Bueno specifically. Uh, we have other partners that are sort of dabbling in it and we'll, we'll talk about those as well. So I'm really excited about that right now. And, you know, we have talks on the books with grocery store owners and consultants, and we'll be kind of bringing a unique take to, to that space.[00:16:00]
What did you think when you saw it publish?
Brad Bonavida: Your sentence you just read, you talked about this, I'm calling it the perfect storm, right? You've got, what, the cost part, uh, 20, 000 per store per year. And then you've got the compliance part, and then you've got, uh, the shrinking skilled labor. And then you just posted recently on LinkedIn about, uh, how the demand for HFCs is starting to outpace the supply.
And so if I could add even one more component to the perfect storm, I was, I'm not an expert in this, but I was looking up where these HFCs are manufactured and surprise, the biggest manufacturer of HFCs is China, right? So if you add tariffs on top of everything else that you just said, which I haven't even researched into yet, like this is.
Like, uh, I don't know, do I need to start stockpiling my own groceries or something here for freezer items? Yeah, well, that's
James Dice: the, that's the value prop for leak detection [00:17:00] technology is like you have this resource that's dwindling. That's really important to your, your operations of your grocery store.
Like you might as well start managing it as if it's, you know, gold, right? Yeah. Um,
Brad Bonavida: And then there's the asset, like, I'm just putting myself in the head of an asset manager. And it's like, you're trying to navigate all those things. And then you've got to do building upgrades. And it's like, Do I change out the whole system?
Do I just try to get new refrigerant in the systems I have? Like there, there, do I add more leak detection sensors? There's like so many different routes you could go towards solution. I'm sure you're going to dive into this with further articles, but like, that sounds like such a headache to determine what to attack first for them.
James Dice: Absolutely. And, and the, the stakeholders involved, the existing technologies that are kind of solving the problem, but not fully. Yeah, it's a really fascinating sort of little corner of, of our industry.
Brad Bonavida: All right, I'll, uh, I'll kick us off in the next one. Um, all right. So we're moving [00:18:00] to integrating, connecting and securing devices.
The news that was interesting there that's for IT professionals, OT professionals, um, and we linked an article from security week, but the article from security week was actually talking about, uh, this industry report from four scout, it's the four scouts threat report, and it's. Highlighting the rising cyber risks and it's talking specifically about, uh, rising cyber risks for buildings.
Um, and I think the one stat that you and I both pulled out and then I'll kick it off to you is that they noted an uptick in building automation system, uh, cyber attacks from 1 percent in 2023 to 9 percent in 2024. So a huge uptick in seeing buildings be attacked for, or sorry, cyber attacks from the building uh, automation system or building operations perspective.
James Dice: So they're looking at all cyber attacks, right? And then they're saying, of that 9 percent are now coming from OT systems. Yeah. They,
Brad Bonavida: they [00:19:00] analyzed 900 million attacks through this report is what they wrote. How they do that. I'm not sure, but yes, that's what they said. Yeah.
James Dice: Um, and they're specifically calling out in the report.
BACnet and other BAS protocols, um, basically providing easy entry points, kind of like the, you know, the famous target attack where they got in through the BAS switched over to the corporate network from there. And so they're basically calling for stronger OT security controls, which. Yeah, we talk a lot about in our content, uh, network segmentation, monitoring, zero trust architectures, those sorts of things.
Um, so nothing really new there, but that's, I think the stat is what's the news for me. What do you think?
Brad Bonavida: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. When I was looking through it, one thing that was interesting is it talked a lot about how. Um, how these cyber security threats start and how they're really scanning for like the vulnerability within the whole system, within the whole company, within the whole building, [00:20:00]whatever it is.
So to me, when I think about like a, a cyber threat, trying to find an, an, a hole in your building. That means that when building automation systems or building related networks go from 1 percent to 9%, it's not that they're being targeted more. It's that they're. Starting to become the, the laggard, the, the, you know, the weakest link, like you're just scanning a building, you're looking for the right way in that right way in is becoming building networks more often.
So it's like this industry is falling behind on cyber security compared to the other ways that they could infiltrate the building totally.
James Dice: That makes sense. The other
Brad Bonavida: thing that I thought was a little interesting to think about is just, um, it's not just if they, if they enter your building, if they're, if you know, you get an attack, it's not just, uh, capturing like data, you know, with the target one, it was all about credit card data.
I think. But if they enter through your building networks, there's also the threat of tampering with environmental controls, like turning on and off lights, [00:21:00] uh, even like unlocking doors.
James Dice: Um, so our last sort of, uh, topic is, uh, workplace experience. So the people like setting up, um, all of our workplaces and the people thinking about how to improve the experience in offices and other types of buildings.
Um. This article is from Andrew Canupal, who's the workplace engineering manager at LinkedIn. You know, highly valued member of the Nexus community. He wrote an article that we linked to in the show notes here called Smart Buildings, Less Flash, More Function. And he's basically sharing his take on calculating the ROI of smart building investments.
And just to give people context, you know, LinkedIn, um, has done a lot around New construction, um, they've done a lot around existing buildings, like thinking through whether they own or lease them, uh, what technologies make the most sense. And Andrew's team is like very highly skilled and you can hear them speak at Nexus con [00:22:00] and, um, and Nexus pro events and that kind of thing.
So we highly value what, what they always share. And Andrew was always sharing kind of like real talks or takes. And I really appreciate that. So he said, fundamentally. I see only two metrics that matter in commercial real estate, and he means metrics in terms of calculating an R. O. I. On smart buildings, tech, and he says, is the is the technology making the space more in demand?
Right? Um, and so he said, for landlords, this means reducing the vacancy rate for owners and occupiers and tenants. This means increasing the space utilization. Basically are people demanding and desiring to be in that versus working elsewhere. That's metric number one metric. Number two is are the finances of that building being managed effectively.
And so this means basically for both sides, reducing operating expenses, right? Um, whether whether you're on the landlord side or the occupier side. Um, and his article [00:23:00] goes into depth around, you know, how he's thinking about both of those metrics. And what I really liked was around how he's thinking about both of those.
On the second one, we're really on the first one too, but for the occupant and for the people managing expenses, we really need to get into the actual workflows of those people. Um, and so if we're going to improve space demand, how are they using it now? What are they doing now? If we're going to improve operating expenses, how are those expenses being managed now?
What are the existing workflows? And I think if I just paraphrase the way Andrew's feeling is a lot of people try to implement tech sort of outside of the realities of the existing workflows. And I feel like we've been saying the word workflow for the entire existence of Nexus Labs. So it really resonated with me to like, really someone's out there doing this every day in a real building and they're trying to drive business value for this occupier.
And really it comes [00:24:00] back to. Integrating the tech into those workflows. What'd you think?
Brad Bonavida: Yeah. I mean, this conversation, I feel like I've had something related to this conversation so many times with so many building owners recently, um, about really driving quantitative metrics with your smart buildings implementations instead of qualitative.
Shout out to Christian Nelson from low tide properties. He, uh, he and I talked about this for like an hour, but just his, his frustration with people telling them how their technologies are going to make all these soft, non tangible benefits to his building. And he wants exactly the same thing Andrew was talking about.
He wants operating expense reduction and operational efficiencies. So like things like how long does it take to close an open ticket? Um, so Andrew did a great job of like driving home. How you can look at your smart buildings program and try to create a real ROI. That's quantitative, not qualitative. But I also like that, you know, workplace [00:25:00] managers are trying to make environments as high quality as possible in ways that are more qualitative.
And he did make a point to be like. You should have a budget for that. You should be experimenting and trying to do new things and see what it does for your building, but keep it separate from your core business case, because you're just going to get wrapped around the axle about whether it's working or not.
If you try to bring in that, uh, qualitative stuff.
James Dice: Yeah. You don't want your whole program to be looked at in jeopardy. And so the program is where you need to drive true business value. And then you're experimenting over here. I think that's great.
Brad Bonavida: The other thing that Andrew brought up that was useful or I thought was interesting was his take that the smartest buildings that he's been into, you usually don't notice because if we're talking about like, you know, increasing operational efficiency, that means that no one's going to notice it because it's going to make what they were already doing easier.
So it's not like they're doing new things. They don't realize this building is very smart because it's just making the things they're already doing easier rather than flashy. You [00:26:00] know, I wasn't even thinking about that. Now I see it. So it's a
James Dice: certain amount of like what he's saying that not saying is like, don't don't try to change existing workflows.
Right. How are you integrating the tech into those existing workflows to make them easier? Um, I thought he had a good follow. I asked him a follow up question around how workplace, you know, managers like him are thinking about IAQ and he, he shared an interesting take. It's not so much that he's viewing IAQ as another thing that needs to have an ROI to it.
He's basically saying that providing good air quality is a, piece of infrastructure, if it's, it's the basic deliverable to provide that space for their occupants, right? The people who work at LinkedIn and the sensor provides ability to say whether you're doing a good job at that or not. And so it's almost like, it's not necessarily like an add on that I need to justify it's, [00:27:00] are we doing, are we doing our jobs?
Right. Which I thought was interesting. So tying this back to the industry analyst call and thinking about how vendors can beat the status quo. Right. Um, It's really about Ken for every technology out there. If you guys are a smart buildings vendor, listening to this, every technology out there needs to figure out how to make their way into the table stakes, right?
And that's the, that's the biggest thing that I think people are struggling with right now is it's currently not table stakes. To use smart buildings technology for most categories and how do you make it more table stakes for more types of buildings, right? All right. That's all for the news today. Let's do some carve outs.
All right, you go first, Brad.
Brad Bonavida: Okay. Uh, my carve out is that it's getting warm in Colorado. So I've been starting to get hyped up to do some mountain biking again. I kind of set my bike down since last year, but I [00:28:00] specifically remember doing a ride in December. And knowing that there is something wrong with my bike and I can't remember what that is.
And I was looking at it and I don't know, I still don't know what it is. So my option is like to start a ride and get a certain distance in and realize it's not working. And then I'm always trying to tie these back. Right. And that's like, I can't, I can't fault detect on my bike. I don't have any technology for it to let me know what's wrong until I actually get on it as what's wrong.
So hopefully I'm not too far down the path when I realize what's going on with it.
James Dice: I mean, I think a lot of facility managers feel that exact way. Right.
Brad Bonavida: Like, you know, if you turn on that, that chiller again, that something's not going to spin up, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh
James Dice: yeah. Like when, as it gets hotter outside, we're going to need that, you know, extra system that hasn't been running all winter and what the hell is going to happen with that extra system?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, mine is, I've been thinking a lot about the news lately. I'm sure I'm not alone. I've been starting my mornings, trying [00:29:00]not to like start my. actual day with what's going on in the news, but it's almost like really hard not to recently. And so I have this like funny routine where I'll, um, play piano first.
I've been learning the piano and so I play piano when I write, when I wake up so that I'm not like starting the news immediately. And then I read the news. And so I've been learning about things like, well, how did tariffs work recently for obvious reasons. And then I closed my news routine with the wordle of the day.
And, um, so that's, that's been my routine lately. So I'd love to hear in the audience, if there's any wordle, other wordlers out there. I know that all four of our team members all play wordle, uh, which is funny. So that's basically
Brad Bonavida: you put a, you put a wholesome sandwich around the news. Yeah,
James Dice: exactly. I don't want it to put me into like this reactive grumpy mood, um, lately.
So anyway, uh, that's all for this week. We'll see you again [00:30:00] in a couple of weeks and talk about more stuff. Thanks y'all.
Rosy Khalife: Okay, friends. Thank you for listening to this episode. As we continue to grow our global community of change makers, we need your help for the next couple of months. We're challenging our listeners to share a link to their favorite nexus episode on LinkedIn with a short post about why you listen. It would really, really help us out.
Make sure to tag us in the post so we can see it. Have a good one.
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Episode 174 is a conversation with James Dice and Brad Bonavida from Nexus Labs.
Episode 174 features James Dice, Rosy and Brad Bonavida from Nexus Labs. In this episode of the Nexus Podcast, the Nexus Labs team breaks down the top stories relevant to energy managers, facility managers, IT/OT managers, and workplace managers.
Introduction (0:50)
At the Nexus (2:04)
Building Performance and Controls (8:30)
Digitizing Operations & Maintenance (13:36)
Integrating, Connecting, and Securing Devices (18:02)
Workplace Experience (21:08)
Sign off (27:43)
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Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tigerâlicensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S680579-16073.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
James Dice: [00:00:00] Hey friends, if you like the Nexus podcast, the best way to continue the learning is to join our community. There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus Pro Membership. It's our global community of smart building professionals. We have monthly events, paywall, deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month.
Second, you can upgrade from the Pro Membership to our courses offering. It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses taught by world leading experts on each topic under the smart buildings umbrella third. And finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions.
The links are below in the show notes. And now let's go on to the podcast.
Welcome back to the nexus podcast. It's your host, James dice. I have Brad with me today. Hey, Brad, how you doing? Great. [00:01:00] Great to, great to be back. Your, your second, your second show here. Um, we are going to do what we did two weeks ago and our, our new format here kind of talk through things to know about that are happening in the smart buildings industry over the last two weeks that our audience should know about.
Um, this is intended to give all of them. Sort of a taste of what's going on in our community and outside of our community. We've heard so much about how people walk their dogs with us or they commute with us, uh, go on trail runs if you're, if you're like the two of us. Right. Um, so this is that, but for the full experience, everyone should realize like the best way to engage with us is to be subscribed to the newsletter.
That's where all the news is coming out. And then. Our full take on each headline, every piece of content we publish invites to all of our events, things to know about. And so basically how to avoid FOMO is [00:02:00] to be a subscriber to the newsletter. Let's talk about a little bit about what we've been up to over the last two weeks at Nexus Labs.
Um, I'm still calling everyone, not, not as much as I want to be, but I said two weeks ago, I've been calling everyone, trying to get everyone to make sure they submit abstracts to, uh, speak at NexusCon this year. I'm still, um, doing that and, uh, we'll be doing that until the deadline on April 5th. So if you're listening to this and it's not April 5th yet, come to our website.
There's a big pop up, a big banner thing for you to submit an abstract. If you're not going to do that, then you're not going to be able to get on stage. Please do that. What have you been up to Brad?
Brad Bonavida: I've also been trying to tell people to submit abstracts and getting on them about that. Uh, there's so many people that I know are going to submit a good one.
So I'm just like reminding them we're waiting for you on this. Um, besides that though, I'm always focused on the Nexus marketplace. We've got. 826 vendors, I believe last time I checked and [00:03:00] 106 categories. We just added our 106 category, which is a service provider category called workplace strategy consultants.
Um, but what I wanted to actually bring up is that we're really trying to. Get better at quantifying when categories are complete. Like, is this, is this done to the point that we want building owners to be able to go in there and they can answer all their own questions. And, uh, I went through all of them and we have 15 core categories that I, you know, define is complete and complete means that.
All of those categories have average pricing info that we've gathered from vendors that are in that space. Um, they have at least 10 vendors listed. Some have like 40 listed. And then there's at least five vendors who filled out their own profile details. So we know that everything that they have is as up to date and as thorough as possible because they're the ones who provided it.
And then we vetted it based on, you know, RFIs and demos and things like that. So that list of 15 is growing weekly and what [00:04:00] we're driving towards.
James Dice: Yeah. And I, this was kind of like a pinch me moment for me when you told me that we had these, I was expecting the marketplace to be a lot less complete, but we've just been hustling over the last year since you've been on board, kind of focusing on it.
We've also had quite a few RFIs that have filled in whole categories. Um, thanks to the building owners that have sort of trusted us with their RFI process. And so those core categories are like all the categories that we talk about all the time, right? FDD. Uh, sustainability reporting, energy management, uh, IAQ, occupancy counting, CMMS, like all the ones that are sort of like at the forefront of the smart buildings world.
We now have enough information that a building owner or a consultant could really get in and at least shortlist. But almost sometimes like get down to one or two with the information we have, which is a huge value to the industry. I'm like patting else, patting ourselves in [00:05:00] the back here, but like, it really is pretty crazy the amount of information that's in here now that someone would have had to do so much work before and Googling it and chat GPT don't have like the nuance that we have when it's sort of comes to sort of creating.
What do they do and how do we create that framework that the, the vendors sort of sit inside, which I think is cool.
Brad Bonavida: If you were a building owner and you were just getting started on one of those core categories, like you wanted to purchase that technology or just learn more about it. If you watched our buyer's guide on it and then went to the category in the marketplace to see what's there to like, you've just done two months of research in 30 minutes.
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's great.
James Dice: Um, you're welcome everyone. Um, all right, I have also, I'm also excited about our new process. Um, we've had our partner program going on for two years now. [00:06:00] We've just each year added something to our partner program. So we have 40 plus vendors that are our partners. Last year, we added the conference, obviously, so we've just allowed them to attend the conference and, um, exhibit in the expo hall at the conference this year.
We had one up at one more time. And so we've added what we're calling an industry analyst portion of the partnership, and we've kicked that off recently with one of our new partners air things, and we're about to take it to all of our existing partners. Um, over the next quarter or so. And I think this is interesting to like kind of note what we've seen so far, which is really helping a vendor understand how they're like, where they fit in the marketplace now that we have this marketplace tool built and given where they fit in the marketplace, what sort of content should they be thinking about producing?
Over the next year as a partner of ours. And I just feel like this process is really [00:07:00] going to be fruitful for our vendors, but not just our vendors, but also like the, the industry as a whole, helping people figure out who their competition is, how they stack up, what stories they might want to tell as a result is I think a really still important thing for.
Helping buyers differentiate between the vendors themselves.
Brad Bonavida: Yeah, we, we have so many conversations externally with people where we bring up the phrase status quo to talk about smart buildings because they'll give a demo or they'll explain what they're trying to do. And. So many people agree that they're really competing against the status quo, which is like no building owner buys this technology and they just keep going the other way.
Um, so I just think this industry analyst is a really good way to dive into that and see like when, when you can position yourself and see who you are and see how your offering really, um, you know, is compelling to building owners, then you can market against the status quo rather than just sitting there trying to differentiate yourselves and fight for 1 [00:08:00] percent of the actual market.
James Dice: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a lot of times it's advocating on behalf of your category, right? So we've talked about to a lot of our partners, your first step is to validate that the category you're in is needed. The second step, once they realize that the status quo is not going to work and your category is going to work, then you can start to differentiate.
But if you don't validate the category first, then it doesn't work. All right. Let's jump into the news from this last two, these last couple of weeks. You want to kick us off?
Brad Bonavida: Yeah, I'll go first. So, uh, our first piece of news is for, is in our building performance and control section. Uh, so that's for like energy managers, that type of person.
Um, and this is, uh, news from us. We finished our battery energy storage RFI. Um, so we had a couple of different. Building owners who sponsored this, uh, we talked about the maintenance management one in our last podcast, but this one, we had some new building owners. They're looking at battery energy storage.
They're trying to figure out, you know, what works, who [00:09:00] they should talk to. We created a list of, I think, 47 questions that were really important to learn about battery storage, uh, vendors and what their offerings were. And we put those out to the battery energy storage market and, um, got replies back, um, and ironically enough, at the same time, you had seen that there was a, another major battery fire, uh, that was just announced.
I think it was in California that that came, that that just happened. Um, so anyway, we've been sharing those results, uh, with our building owners. Um, and maybe just, I have a couple of key things that, that come straight to mind from those results. Well, well, first of all,
James Dice: Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say the reason we prioritize this category, like when you think about battery energy storage, you're not Always connecting that with smart buildings.
But the reason we prioritize this category is when we were doing an annual poll on what building owners are most interested in. And it was pretty hot. Like it was a hot category. And then we had three, I think three [00:10:00] building owners in the particular P gym. Colorado university, Duke university, um, that we're participating in this RFI, like actively seeking out the results.
Um, so for people wondering why we dove in on that, this topic, uh, in particular, uh, that's why.
Brad Bonavida: Yeah. The other, the other big thing of why this is, uh, pertinent now that keeps coming up when we talk to people is the, I believe it's NEM 3. 0, which is the new net energy metering in California that, More or less makes it so that the money that people were getting from having PV panels, uh, it's a lot harder to get the same amount of savings.
So when you're trying to actually calculate the ROI or the justification for adding solar panels, you almost have to have a battery now. So people are pairing those two devices together is kind of one thing that you would put into your building. Um, two quick just takeaways. I was thinking if I could share with our audience a couple things from the [00:11:00] RFI.
The first one, uh, is that almost all the respondents, uh, had an LFP battery, a lithium ion, lithium iron phosphate battery, which is a type of lithium ion battery. So that's kind of like becoming the market standard. Like almost everyone's using those. Um, there was a couple of other, uh, responses from newer technologies, but that definitely dominated.
Um, and the reason that I bring that up is that. We also asked for some dummy pricing, just like how much would it cost to install a one megawatt battery? You know, we gave some, uh, details on the facility, obviously not enough information to give a great quote, but just wanted to see what we could get back.
And all the respondents who gave a price for their LFP installation, or not the installation, just the battery itself, they were like, Super, super close on price. And when I was trying to think like, what does that mean? What's the takeaway here? Um, and I was talking to, uh, Mandy Whedon about this too. She, we're going back and forth on it, but, [00:12:00] um, it kind of tells you that the battery itself is a little bit commoditized with all those vendors.
So then where are they really going to differentiate? And it's really two places that weren't in the quote and it's the software side. First, like most, almost all these providers paired their battery with some sort of a software that's typically doing battery optimization. So it's integrating with your solar, it's integrating with your EV chargers, generators, something like that, or and or they're going to differentiate on the services side.
So there's so much work that you have to do to install these things, uh, utility interconnection request documents. The incentives, the maintenance versus the warranty, finding your contractors. So that's the two areas where it seems like they were really competing more than the battery itself, which seemed a bit commoditized.
I thought that was interesting.
James Dice: Yeah. And I thought that the piece around the software was especially interesting with. The overlap between our, you know, category, the marketplace, there's, we have a category called advanced [00:13:00] supervisory control that we've been producing content on for many years now. And it's so interesting to think about, you know, you have a software application that is already taking control of some devices in your building.
Now, this is another one that could potentially take control of different devices and how much convergence around one controls application. Will we actually have in the building or will it just be different? Different applications. So that'll, that'll be interesting as we, uh, evolve. And we're, we're planning on doing a piece on that, I think in a couple of months.
So,
Brad Bonavida: yep.
James Dice: All right, let's move on. Let's go to digitizing operations and maintenance. Um, we had a article, this is another piece of news from us that we're pulling. Um, I think our goal would be that we create all the news in the industry. That's not where we're at today, but at least in so far in this episode, we are creating the news.
Um, So this one came from us. We produced a piece, um, that I wrote [00:14:00] published recently, which is called what's driving investment and software based refrigerant leak detection. And, um, this has been a fascinating topic to dig into. Um, basically the 2020, um, aim act, which is, was signed into law by president Trump, um, basically started kicking off an aggressive phase down of HFC refrigerants.
And, um, You know, I dug into it from a compliance standpoint, like all these people with, with, um, lots of refrigerant charges and their buildings need to comply with this legislation. But once I unpacked it, it like became really interesting. And I wrote a sentence in the piece that I want to read here, which is you have a mission critical system that leaks an extremely potent greenhouse greenhouse gas at a rate of 20 percent more per or more per year.
So you're, you're leaking 20 percent of this asset. While the cost to replace that [00:15:00] gas skyrockets and regulations tighten year after year, all as the skilled workforce required to manage that resource dwindles. Uh, and someone just told me in a different interview this week, that the average age of refrigeration technician in the United States is 61 years old.
And so this article sort of kicks off this, this deeper dive into technology solutions that are sort of. Uh, at the forefront of of that problem, and so we'll be talking about the different types of leak detection technologies. We'll be talking about specifically for our partners, how our partners are solving those problems.
Uh, so Facilio and Bueno specifically. Uh, we have other partners that are sort of dabbling in it and we'll, we'll talk about those as well. So I'm really excited about that right now. And, you know, we have talks on the books with grocery store owners and consultants, and we'll be kind of bringing a unique take to, to that space.[00:16:00]
What did you think when you saw it publish?
Brad Bonavida: Your sentence you just read, you talked about this, I'm calling it the perfect storm, right? You've got, what, the cost part, uh, 20, 000 per store per year. And then you've got the compliance part, and then you've got, uh, the shrinking skilled labor. And then you just posted recently on LinkedIn about, uh, how the demand for HFCs is starting to outpace the supply.
And so if I could add even one more component to the perfect storm, I was, I'm not an expert in this, but I was looking up where these HFCs are manufactured and surprise, the biggest manufacturer of HFCs is China, right? So if you add tariffs on top of everything else that you just said, which I haven't even researched into yet, like this is.
Like, uh, I don't know, do I need to start stockpiling my own groceries or something here for freezer items? Yeah, well, that's
James Dice: the, that's the value prop for leak detection [00:17:00] technology is like you have this resource that's dwindling. That's really important to your, your operations of your grocery store.
Like you might as well start managing it as if it's, you know, gold, right? Yeah. Um,
Brad Bonavida: And then there's the asset, like, I'm just putting myself in the head of an asset manager. And it's like, you're trying to navigate all those things. And then you've got to do building upgrades. And it's like, Do I change out the whole system?
Do I just try to get new refrigerant in the systems I have? Like there, there, do I add more leak detection sensors? There's like so many different routes you could go towards solution. I'm sure you're going to dive into this with further articles, but like, that sounds like such a headache to determine what to attack first for them.
James Dice: Absolutely. And, and the, the stakeholders involved, the existing technologies that are kind of solving the problem, but not fully. Yeah, it's a really fascinating sort of little corner of, of our industry.
Brad Bonavida: All right, I'll, uh, I'll kick us off in the next one. Um, all right. So we're moving [00:18:00] to integrating, connecting and securing devices.
The news that was interesting there that's for IT professionals, OT professionals, um, and we linked an article from security week, but the article from security week was actually talking about, uh, this industry report from four scout, it's the four scouts threat report, and it's. Highlighting the rising cyber risks and it's talking specifically about, uh, rising cyber risks for buildings.
Um, and I think the one stat that you and I both pulled out and then I'll kick it off to you is that they noted an uptick in building automation system, uh, cyber attacks from 1 percent in 2023 to 9 percent in 2024. So a huge uptick in seeing buildings be attacked for, or sorry, cyber attacks from the building uh, automation system or building operations perspective.
James Dice: So they're looking at all cyber attacks, right? And then they're saying, of that 9 percent are now coming from OT systems. Yeah. They,
Brad Bonavida: they [00:19:00] analyzed 900 million attacks through this report is what they wrote. How they do that. I'm not sure, but yes, that's what they said. Yeah.
James Dice: Um, and they're specifically calling out in the report.
BACnet and other BAS protocols, um, basically providing easy entry points, kind of like the, you know, the famous target attack where they got in through the BAS switched over to the corporate network from there. And so they're basically calling for stronger OT security controls, which. Yeah, we talk a lot about in our content, uh, network segmentation, monitoring, zero trust architectures, those sorts of things.
Um, so nothing really new there, but that's, I think the stat is what's the news for me. What do you think?
Brad Bonavida: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. When I was looking through it, one thing that was interesting is it talked a lot about how. Um, how these cyber security threats start and how they're really scanning for like the vulnerability within the whole system, within the whole company, within the whole building, [00:20:00]whatever it is.
So to me, when I think about like a, a cyber threat, trying to find an, an, a hole in your building. That means that when building automation systems or building related networks go from 1 percent to 9%, it's not that they're being targeted more. It's that they're. Starting to become the, the laggard, the, the, you know, the weakest link, like you're just scanning a building, you're looking for the right way in that right way in is becoming building networks more often.
So it's like this industry is falling behind on cyber security compared to the other ways that they could infiltrate the building totally.
James Dice: That makes sense. The other
Brad Bonavida: thing that I thought was a little interesting to think about is just, um, it's not just if they, if they enter your building, if they're, if you know, you get an attack, it's not just, uh, capturing like data, you know, with the target one, it was all about credit card data.
I think. But if they enter through your building networks, there's also the threat of tampering with environmental controls, like turning on and off lights, [00:21:00] uh, even like unlocking doors.
James Dice: Um, so our last sort of, uh, topic is, uh, workplace experience. So the people like setting up, um, all of our workplaces and the people thinking about how to improve the experience in offices and other types of buildings.
Um. This article is from Andrew Canupal, who's the workplace engineering manager at LinkedIn. You know, highly valued member of the Nexus community. He wrote an article that we linked to in the show notes here called Smart Buildings, Less Flash, More Function. And he's basically sharing his take on calculating the ROI of smart building investments.
And just to give people context, you know, LinkedIn, um, has done a lot around New construction, um, they've done a lot around existing buildings, like thinking through whether they own or lease them, uh, what technologies make the most sense. And Andrew's team is like very highly skilled and you can hear them speak at Nexus con [00:22:00] and, um, and Nexus pro events and that kind of thing.
So we highly value what, what they always share. And Andrew was always sharing kind of like real talks or takes. And I really appreciate that. So he said, fundamentally. I see only two metrics that matter in commercial real estate, and he means metrics in terms of calculating an R. O. I. On smart buildings, tech, and he says, is the is the technology making the space more in demand?
Right? Um, and so he said, for landlords, this means reducing the vacancy rate for owners and occupiers and tenants. This means increasing the space utilization. Basically are people demanding and desiring to be in that versus working elsewhere. That's metric number one metric. Number two is are the finances of that building being managed effectively.
And so this means basically for both sides, reducing operating expenses, right? Um, whether whether you're on the landlord side or the occupier side. Um, and his article [00:23:00] goes into depth around, you know, how he's thinking about both of those metrics. And what I really liked was around how he's thinking about both of those.
On the second one, we're really on the first one too, but for the occupant and for the people managing expenses, we really need to get into the actual workflows of those people. Um, and so if we're going to improve space demand, how are they using it now? What are they doing now? If we're going to improve operating expenses, how are those expenses being managed now?
What are the existing workflows? And I think if I just paraphrase the way Andrew's feeling is a lot of people try to implement tech sort of outside of the realities of the existing workflows. And I feel like we've been saying the word workflow for the entire existence of Nexus Labs. So it really resonated with me to like, really someone's out there doing this every day in a real building and they're trying to drive business value for this occupier.
And really it comes [00:24:00] back to. Integrating the tech into those workflows. What'd you think?
Brad Bonavida: Yeah. I mean, this conversation, I feel like I've had something related to this conversation so many times with so many building owners recently, um, about really driving quantitative metrics with your smart buildings implementations instead of qualitative.
Shout out to Christian Nelson from low tide properties. He, uh, he and I talked about this for like an hour, but just his, his frustration with people telling them how their technologies are going to make all these soft, non tangible benefits to his building. And he wants exactly the same thing Andrew was talking about.
He wants operating expense reduction and operational efficiencies. So like things like how long does it take to close an open ticket? Um, so Andrew did a great job of like driving home. How you can look at your smart buildings program and try to create a real ROI. That's quantitative, not qualitative. But I also like that, you know, workplace [00:25:00] managers are trying to make environments as high quality as possible in ways that are more qualitative.
And he did make a point to be like. You should have a budget for that. You should be experimenting and trying to do new things and see what it does for your building, but keep it separate from your core business case, because you're just going to get wrapped around the axle about whether it's working or not.
If you try to bring in that, uh, qualitative stuff.
James Dice: Yeah. You don't want your whole program to be looked at in jeopardy. And so the program is where you need to drive true business value. And then you're experimenting over here. I think that's great.
Brad Bonavida: The other thing that Andrew brought up that was useful or I thought was interesting was his take that the smartest buildings that he's been into, you usually don't notice because if we're talking about like, you know, increasing operational efficiency, that means that no one's going to notice it because it's going to make what they were already doing easier.
So it's not like they're doing new things. They don't realize this building is very smart because it's just making the things they're already doing easier rather than flashy. You [00:26:00] know, I wasn't even thinking about that. Now I see it. So it's a
James Dice: certain amount of like what he's saying that not saying is like, don't don't try to change existing workflows.
Right. How are you integrating the tech into those existing workflows to make them easier? Um, I thought he had a good follow. I asked him a follow up question around how workplace, you know, managers like him are thinking about IAQ and he, he shared an interesting take. It's not so much that he's viewing IAQ as another thing that needs to have an ROI to it.
He's basically saying that providing good air quality is a, piece of infrastructure, if it's, it's the basic deliverable to provide that space for their occupants, right? The people who work at LinkedIn and the sensor provides ability to say whether you're doing a good job at that or not. And so it's almost like, it's not necessarily like an add on that I need to justify it's, [00:27:00] are we doing, are we doing our jobs?
Right. Which I thought was interesting. So tying this back to the industry analyst call and thinking about how vendors can beat the status quo. Right. Um, It's really about Ken for every technology out there. If you guys are a smart buildings vendor, listening to this, every technology out there needs to figure out how to make their way into the table stakes, right?
And that's the, that's the biggest thing that I think people are struggling with right now is it's currently not table stakes. To use smart buildings technology for most categories and how do you make it more table stakes for more types of buildings, right? All right. That's all for the news today. Let's do some carve outs.
All right, you go first, Brad.
Brad Bonavida: Okay. Uh, my carve out is that it's getting warm in Colorado. So I've been starting to get hyped up to do some mountain biking again. I kind of set my bike down since last year, but I [00:28:00] specifically remember doing a ride in December. And knowing that there is something wrong with my bike and I can't remember what that is.
And I was looking at it and I don't know, I still don't know what it is. So my option is like to start a ride and get a certain distance in and realize it's not working. And then I'm always trying to tie these back. Right. And that's like, I can't, I can't fault detect on my bike. I don't have any technology for it to let me know what's wrong until I actually get on it as what's wrong.
So hopefully I'm not too far down the path when I realize what's going on with it.
James Dice: I mean, I think a lot of facility managers feel that exact way. Right.
Brad Bonavida: Like, you know, if you turn on that, that chiller again, that something's not going to spin up, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh
James Dice: yeah. Like when, as it gets hotter outside, we're going to need that, you know, extra system that hasn't been running all winter and what the hell is going to happen with that extra system?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, mine is, I've been thinking a lot about the news lately. I'm sure I'm not alone. I've been starting my mornings, trying [00:29:00]not to like start my. actual day with what's going on in the news, but it's almost like really hard not to recently. And so I have this like funny routine where I'll, um, play piano first.
I've been learning the piano and so I play piano when I write, when I wake up so that I'm not like starting the news immediately. And then I read the news. And so I've been learning about things like, well, how did tariffs work recently for obvious reasons. And then I closed my news routine with the wordle of the day.
And, um, so that's, that's been my routine lately. So I'd love to hear in the audience, if there's any wordle, other wordlers out there. I know that all four of our team members all play wordle, uh, which is funny. So that's basically
Brad Bonavida: you put a, you put a wholesome sandwich around the news. Yeah,
James Dice: exactly. I don't want it to put me into like this reactive grumpy mood, um, lately.
So anyway, uh, that's all for this week. We'll see you again [00:30:00] in a couple of weeks and talk about more stuff. Thanks y'all.
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